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To: boatbums
Dear BB,I thought this was a very good post and you're coming very close to sounding Catholic :)

So the traditions Irenaeus spoke of are all found in the Bible, he even iterates what the truths were that the barbarians would be taught.

If you read the Bible alone you would not come to explicate wording for things like Infant Baptism,the Trinity, etc...

The ECF's were in agreement on these things and held councils to make them concrete and dogmatic after heretics challenged them and after Christianity was legalized by Constantine

Here are a few ECF writings on Infant Baptism and the Trinity

"For He came to save all through means of Himself--all, I say, who through Him are born again to God--infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180).

""Next, I may reasonably turn to those who divide and cut to pieces and destroy that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine Monarchy, making it as it were three powers and partitive subsistences and god-heads three. I am told that some among you who are catechists and teachers of the Divine Word, take the lead in this tenet, who are diametrically opposed, so to speak, to Sabellius's opinions; for he blasphemously says that the Son is the Father, and the Father the Son, but they in some sort preach three Gods, as dividing the sacred Monad into three subsistences foreign to each other and utterly separate. For it must needs be that with the God of the Universe, the Divine Word is united, and the Holy Ghost must repose and habitate in God; thus in one as in a summit, I mean the God of the Universe, must the Divine Triad be gathered up and brought together. For it is the doctrine of the presumptuous Marcion, to sever and divide the Divine Monarchy into three origins,--a devil's teaching, not that of Christ's true disciples and lovers of the Saviour's lessons, For they know well that a Triad is preached by divine Scripture, but that neither Old Testament nor New preaches three Gods.” Pope Dionysius [regn. 260-268], to Dionysius of Alexandria, fragment in Athanasius' Nicene Definition 26 (A.D. 262).

Sola scriptura, to me, means that the scriptures are the ultimate authority for doctrines of the faith and, on that, every early "church father" agreed.

This is not what they believed dear sister.They believed in the three legged stool-if you take one out the stool collapses-The three legged stool is Sacred Scripture,Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium(councils etc..)

Some examples...

"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.'" Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 6 (A.D. 256).

" 'So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.' Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther." John Chrysostom, Homily on 2nd Thessalonians, 4:2 (A.D. 404).

Again,dear sister,. The Early Church understood God’s Revelation is given to us in three ways: 1. The Scripture, God’s Word in writing by the inspiration of the Spirit. 2. Sacred Apostolic Tradition, God’s Word entrusted to the Apostles by God that is NOT EXPLICITLY in Scriptures. It is living in that it is practiced, thus we also call Tradition “living”. Sometimes, it takes the Church some self-examination to determine whether something is Divine or not. 3. The teaching office of the Church, the Magesterium. It is God’s desire that men are able to interpret God’s Revelation to us in Scriptures and Tradition. It is the responsibility of the Apostles’ successors to present this for belief to God’s People. Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are from the same source, God.

You're posts does lead me to think you're on the right track. I will be praying for Our Blessed Lord to reveal more truth to you

I wish you a Blessed evening!

2,341 posted on 06/30/2010 6:30:35 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: boatbums

corection
You’re posts = Your post


2,342 posted on 06/30/2010 6:32:12 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
I don't think any true Christian, Catholic or not, would ever deny that the early church had certain traditions that were not specifically spelled out in Scripture. That they did not hold traditions in contradiction to scripture is what the point is. Irenaeus' quote I gave certainly spelled out specific PRIMARY Christian doctrine that he said even a barbarian - who couldn't read - would have illuminated to him through the Holy Spirit. These docrines are all from Scripture. His statement sounds a lot like what the Nicene Creed describes as well.

I don't see from your quote that he even spoke of infant baptism. He said:

"For He came to save all through means of Himself--all, I say, who through Him are born again to God--infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men."

Your church infers from this that he means water baptism because you believe that is how someone starts down the salvation path. I don't read it that way and find nothing in his statement that contradicts scripture. To say "infant water baptism" is scriptural is not true. Nowhere does the Bible say babies must be baptised in order to be saved, in fact, no scripture even says anyone MUST be water baptised to be saved. We are baptised in the Holy Spirit when we believe. Water baptism is an outward sign after this that a believer professes to be a follower of Christ and to rise up in newness of life. It is an outward sign of an inward condition, but the act itself does not save. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's payment for our sins.

I appreciate any prayers I can get so please feel free to lift them up for me anytime you feel led. I do for you. :o)

2,345 posted on 06/30/2010 7:15:23 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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