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To: bkaycee; kosta50
I dont think you understand the Reformed belief. The believer MUST repent and believe He is given the ability to CHOSE God, He is given the Faith as a gift. Salvation is a gift.

If he must repent and believe BEFORE he is saved, then his salvation is not a gift; it is earned, right? It sounds like you are saying that salvation is conditional upon belief. That is not Reformed belief at all. I give you the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter III:

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

This little except says that salvation is an unearned gift from God, predestined before the foundations of the universe for each elite individual, and there is nothing that anyone can do to change the status to salvation from damnation in any way whatsoever. Or the opposite. Once determined for salvation, the Reformed belief is that one cannot be damned.

Therefore, changing churches, as Kosta alluded to, has no effect on Reformed salvation. Your move away from the Catholic Church has no effect and is, ultimately, entirely useless from a Reformed point of view.

This is not new for Catholics, The Thomist view believes in uncondition election.

The Thomist and Molinist views both teach unconditional election for some, but do not extend that view to all men. No Catholic believes that God predetermines men to hell.

"We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.

Council of Orange (529 AD)"

"God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end."

Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1037

Because God predestines no one to hell, all Catholics believe that God gives His Grace to everyone (John 1:16, Titus 2:11) and calls every one, through Christ, to salvation.

"For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men."

Titus 2:11"

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive

1 Corinthians 15:22"

The Catholic versus the Reformed belief. Scripture is clear.

265 posted on 06/10/2010 3:24:48 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
If he must repent and believe BEFORE he is saved, then his salvation is not a gift; it is earned, right?

No, it is a gift. Faith Is given as a Gift so the elect MAY believe.

This little except says that salvation is an unearned gift from God, predestined before the foundations of the universe for each elite individual, and there is nothing that anyone can do to change the status to salvation from damnation in any way whatsoever. Or the opposite. Once determined for salvation, the Reformed belief is that one cannot be damned.

You missed this in chapt 3 Section VI "Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season"

Christ gives us the FAITH as a gift and we believe. Christ gave me the FAITH TO believe.

Chapt 14:1 The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word, by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened

Therefore, changing churches, as Kosta alluded to, has no effect on Reformed salvation. Your move away from the Catholic Church has no effect and is, ultimately, entirely useless from a Reformed point of view.

I agree, I never said it DID have an effect. I just said what was the point in staying.

Should the early Christians in Rome have continued to frequent the pagan temples and pray to the Roman Gods?

267 posted on 06/10/2010 4:16:03 PM PDT by bkaycee
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To: MarkBsnr; bkaycee
Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter III

Clearly, any Protestant saying he or she "must" do something in order to be saved is a condition which is contrary to the very core of Protestant soteriology. The decision is not his or hers, but something that was decided (pre-programmed) by God before they even existed. Changing churches or behavior, praying, etc. does absolutely nothing as regards this person's salvation. In fact, one could call them "empty rituals," which is, ironically, something the Protestants like to accuse the Catholics of.

275 posted on 06/10/2010 5:56:17 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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