The fight over Book of Mormon geography

Mormon Times ^ | May 27, 2010 | Michael DeGroote

[John McDonnell]

I will correct myself by saying that the person’s statements about the testimonies of the three and the eight witnesses are false, error, wrong, and misleading.

And you would still be dead wrong.

Anyone can look at the testimonies printed in every edition of the Book of Mormon and can easily discern that your statements about those testimonies are false, error, wrong, and misleading. They can see that the testimony of the three witnesses had spiritual elements to it, and that the testimony of the eight witnesses was a purely physical seeing, touching, handling, and hefting of the plates (gold is a very heavy metal).

Since you are not reacting to the testimonies themselves, you are apparently conflating some historical account with some theory. Emma Smith claimed to have out of curiosity touched the plates that were under a cloth in the house, though she was afraid to actually pull back the cloth and view them. I have no idea where you got the mistaken notion that the eight witnesses never saw the engravings on the plates. Their world famous and familiar testimony proves your theory to be wrong. The book Investigating the Book of Mormon Witsesses is the most carefully researched study on the subject, and it historically documents that the testimonies themselves were never denied by the three and the eight witnesses.

If any of the witnesses had denied one's testimony, it would not be necessary to badger and harrass David Whitmer, the last surviving witness, into recanting. Therefore, when in David Whitmer's last years he emphatically stated on several occasions that his testimony was true, and then died in that testimony, and then left a message on his gravestone indicating that the Book of Mormon is true (which gravestone in Richmond, Missouri I have personally seen), the enemies of the Book of Mormon had nothing to counter the printed testimonies. So they had to start "making things up" (as Sarah Palin has said about the lamestream media's continual harrassment of her and her family).

The testimonies of the witnesses of the holy Book of Mormon cannot now be changed. Too many millions of people have read them and understand what they say. Numerous attempts to undermine those testimonies have failed and will continue to fail.

[reaganaut]

It denies the God of the Bible and makes him a man who became God.[AMPU]

You are thinking about later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself upholds Bible teachings as true.[John]

It also demotes him to one of trillions of gods in the mormonic pantheon of gods.[AMPU]

You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself teaches that there is only one God.[John]

It denies His son and makes Him into a creature.[AMPU]

You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself upholds New Testament teachings of and about Christ as true.[John]

It denies the Gospel of Grace and replaces it with works.[AMPU]

You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself teaches the Gospel of Grace[John]:

AMPU, I suspect (correct me if I am wrong AMPU) was referring to Mormonism, not just the BoM (which cannot be divorced from Mormonism).

Smith (and others) have called the BoM the 'most correct book', yet you made very clear distinctions and admit that the BoM contradicts Mormon doctrine. How can that be?

The BoM DOES contradict Mormon doctrine and they can't both be right. The BoM plagiarizes greatly from the KJV -including translation errors and words that are NOT in the original languages, i.e. italicized words.

So let's see, according to your above post: +The Book of Mormon itself upholds Bible teachings as true. - Yeah, it even upholds the idea of the Trinity. Go figure. + The Book of Mormon itself teaches the Gospel of Grace - Fail on this one. "For by Grace we are saved AFTER ALL WE CAN DO" - THAT is NOT the Gospel of Grace. Grace plus ANYTHING is no longer Grace. The Book of Mormon itself upholds New Testament teachings of and about Christ as true - So, the BoM teaches Christ is ETERNALLY God and NOT a 'spirit child' (created being)? Has it ever occurred to you that the REASON these Biblical doctrines are in the BoM is because of the plagiarized verses and it was what Smith was taught while growing up and that he changed his mind later when as his theology developed and got weirder? Mormonism claims to have 'restored' the 'church', and the BoM is claimed to contain many 'plain and precious things' that were removed from the Bible. If the Bible is so unreliable (not translated correctly) then why is so much of it copied into the BoM word for word (I can give you specific verses if you wish)? If the BoM, as you claim, restates Biblical doctrine, then what 'plain and precious things' are there? That Christ was a mass murderer(3 Nephi)? AFA - The claim that the BoM's purpose is "...to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations." The Bible has been MUCH more successful. The only thing the BoM does is cause people to follow after false gods.

[reaganaut]

It denies the God of the Bible and makes him a man who became God.[AMPU]

You are thinking about later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself upholds Bible teachings as true.[John]

It also demotes him to one of trillions of gods in the mormonic pantheon of gods.[AMPU]

You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself teaches that there is only one God.[John]

It denies His son and makes Him into a creature.[AMPU]

You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself upholds New Testament teachings of and about Christ as true.[John]

It denies the Gospel of Grace and replaces it with works.[AMPU]

You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself teaches the Gospel of Grace[John]:

AMPU, I suspect (correct me if I am wrong AMPU) was referring to Mormonism, not just the BoM (which cannot be divorced from Mormonism).

Smith (and others) have called the BoM the 'most correct book', yet you made very clear distinctions and admit that the BoM contradicts Mormon doctrine. How can that be?

The BoM DOES contradict Mormon doctrine and they can't both be right. The BoM plagiarizes greatly from the KJV -including translation errors and words that are NOT in the original languages, i.e. italicized words.

So let's see, according to your above post: +The Book of Mormon itself upholds Bible teachings as true. - Yeah, it even upholds the idea of the Trinity. Go figure.

+ The Book of Mormon itself teaches the Gospel of Grace - Fail on this one. "For by Grace we are saved AFTER ALL WE CAN DO" - THAT is NOT the Gospel of Grace. Grace plus ANYTHING is no longer Grace.

The Book of Mormon itself upholds New Testament teachings of and about Christ as true - So, the BoM teaches Christ is ETERNALLY God and NOT a 'spirit child' (created being)?

Has it ever occurred to you that the REASON these Biblical doctrines are in the BoM is because of the plagiarized verses and it was what Smith was taught while growing up and that he changed his mind later when as his theology developed and got weirder?

Mormonism claims to have 'restored' the 'church', and the BoM is claimed to contain many 'plain and precious things' that were removed from the Bible.

If the Bible is so unreliable (not translated correctly) then why is so much of it copied into the BoM word for word (I can give you specific verses if you wish)?

If the BoM, as you claim, restates Biblical doctrine, then what 'plain and precious things' are there? That Christ was a mass murderer(3 Nephi)?

AFA - The claim that the BoM's purpose is "...to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations." The Bible has been MUCH more successful. The only thing the BoM does is cause people to follow after false gods.

[reaganaut]

Anyone can look at the testimonies printed in every edition of the Book of Mormon and can easily discern that your statements about those testimonies are false, error, wrong, and misleading.

- - - - - -
And anyone can look BEYOND the statements in the BoM, to what the witnesses said ELSEWHERE to see that my statements are true. You are apparently blinded by your desire to believe in Mormonism.

Your mistake is assuming that the only ‘testimonies’ that are valid relating to the topic and the only applicable documents are found in the front of the BoM. That is simply NOT true, as Colo pointed out earlier.

To assess the validity of the so called ‘testimonies’, one must look at the credibility and history of the witnesses in their entirety. THAT is ‘good history’. Something they don’t teach Mormons.

Based upon research of other documentation, my statements that they only saw the plates with their ‘spiritual eyes’ and only ‘hefted’ them while in a box covered with cloth stands.

Your pathetic attempt at getting me to ignore other reliable evidence outside those two statements will not work.

“Doing” history includes looking at historical documentation, primary sources (the testimonies), secondary accounts and related events to get a clear picture. IOW, pretending that the only documents available or reliable are statements that several people signed but didn’t even write (the ones in the BoM) is poor historical method.

You are not a professional historian, are you?

You said: “The book Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses is the most carefully researched study on the subject” - by a FAITH PROMOTING HISTORIAN, NOT A OBJECTIVE HISTORIAN.
The LDS churches track record of destroying documents, whitewashing history, ‘faith promoting history’ and outright lying makes it difficult to trust LDS authored books. There are exceptions of course but as a general rule ‘don’t trust and verify’.

gold is a very heavy metal). - I know gold is a ‘very heavy metal’ I grew up with parents who were jewelers. DUH.

And there have been ‘replica’ copies of the supposed gold plates made out of other materials (brass) that are STILL TO HEAVY TO LIFT much less run with like Smith claimed at one point.

Again, the stories just don’t hold up. The ‘testimonies’ are unreliable, were contradicted and denied elsewhere, and are basically considered not reliable source material by non-LDS historians (even those who are not ‘antis’).

Whitmer is at best a religious schizophrenic. He claimed his testimony was true, then denied it, then said he believed it, then said Smith was a ‘fallen prophet’, all the while joining OTHER churches (usually LDS breakoffs). Now, I will admit that that behavior destroys his credibility, but to say he died ‘with his testimony’ isn’t true either.

And, seriously, are you going to put your eternal salvation (either the CK or Hell) in the hands of THAT motley bunch (Smith’s relatives or close associates who all benefited from their support of Smith, religious addicts, and liars)?

The REAL issue is THIS...either Mormonism is ‘true’ or it is a damnable heresy. If Mormonism is true, then no biggie we get a second chance (except apostates like me of course). But if Mormonism is false, then the orthodox Christianity is true (and Mormon doctrine contradicts the Bible). If orthodox Christianity is true (which I believe it is), the Mormons ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL. There are no ‘second chances’ and God does not let us into His presence (Christian Heaven) just because we lead ‘good lives’. We must trust in Christ ALONE (not church membership, secret handshakes, ‘new names’, works, baptism, or fraudulent books that claim to be Scripture). God is a JUST and HOLY God as well as a merciful one. Mercy will not rob Justice.

So, are you going to choose Joseph Smith or Jesus of the Bible? Will it be the LDS Temple or the Cross?

[Vendome]

LOL

[Elsie]

The testimonies of the witnesses of the holy Book of Mormon cannot now be changed. Too many millions of people have read them and understand what they say.

There is MORE 'testimonies' than what is printed in the BoM.

THOSE are DEFINITLY not be changed!

And they SURE will NOT be produced by the PR department of LDSism; either!

[Elsie]

AMPU, I suspect (correct me if I am wrong AMPU) was referring to Mormonism, not just the BoM (which cannot be divorced from Mormonism).

Unless them HERETICS - the Flds - use it too.

--MormonDude(They do not GIT to call themselves MORMON!! for SLC has no CONTROL over them!)

[Alamo-Girl]

Watch the birdie.

Seems to me that John McDonnell has made a strawman in reply to aMorePerfectUnion's objections by presuming what AMPU meant by "it" - namely, the Book of Mormon instead of Mormonism.

For instance:

AMPU: It denies the God of the Bible and makes him a man who became God.

JM: You are thinking about later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself upholds Bible teachings as true.

In the first place, the response is irrelevant to the assertion unless AMPU meant "it" to be the BOM.

In the second place, for the BOM to uphold Bible teachings as true - both must be asserted a) what the BOM teaches and b) what the Bible teaches concerning Who God IS.

Neither are in evidence in the reply nor would an equivalence be likely considering the divergence between Judaic, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Independent and Mormon canons and translations/interpretations of whatever ancient manuscripts they hold in common.

Finally, if AMPU meant "it" to be Mormonism as I understand the post, Mormonism does indeed deny Who God IS vis-à-vis the Bible.

From Lds.org:

Is President Lorenzo Snow’s oft-repeated statement—“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be”—accepted as official doctrine by the Church?

"It is clear that the teaching of President Lorenzo Snow is both acceptable and accepted doctrine in the Church today."

The King Follett Sermon by J. Smith

"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself."

"But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all."

From the Bible (KJV, which I understand is the LDS preference):

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. – Revelation 4:11

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. – Revelation 1:8

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. - Genesis 2:7

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. - John 3:5-7

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

God's Name is I AM.

[John McDonnell]

You are apparently blinded by your desire to believe in Mormonism.

Whoa! The Religion Moderator chastized me for "making it personal" by "reading someone's mind", etc., and the record shows that I accepted the chastizement and began avoiding "making it personal". Where is the Religion Moderator now that you are characterizing me as "blinded by your desire to believe in Mormonism"?

I have no desire to believe in Mormonism. I believe the Book of Mormon to be true. I believe that several doctrines taught by the Mormon church are false: the once authorized but now rejected doctrine of plural wives, baptism for the dead, secret temple rites, etc. Since the Book of Mormon teaches the fullness of the gospel, and those doctrines are not taught in the Book of Mormon, they are not a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I am aware that the apostle Paul mentioned "baptism for the dead", but he did so in reference to "they" who practised it. If it were a doctrine of the church of Jesus Christ, he would have written "we". So it was a false doctrine that he was referring to.

I first read the Book of Mormon in an attempt to know why it is false, so that I could explain that falseness to others, rather than just badmouth it in an ignorant way. To my astonishment, I found that there are no unrighteous teachings in the book. Its condemnation of polygamy may be the most direct and emphatic in all of religious literature. Its account of the ministry of Jesus Christ to the Nephites was stunningly beautiful to me. How to reconcile the goodness, truth, and beauty of the Book of Mormon with the false doctrines of the Mormon church became impossible for me.

Then I learned about the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which published the Book of Mormon, but which rejected the Mormon doctrine of plural wives, baptism for the dead, secret temple rites, etc. In a branch of the RLDS church I recognized the presence of the Holy Spirit, and was soon baptized.

I later attended meetings on Book of Mormon archaeology that I found fascinating. At one of those meetings I heard a testimony by Neil Steede, a Mesoamerican archaeologist who claimed to have had an encounter with one of the three immortal Nephites (these were men called to leadership by Christ during His ministry there who wished to tarry on Earth, a desire that was granted). The encounter occurred on a mountain concerning which there were local stories of annual visits in April by three men. Neil wondered if these might be the three Nephites. The one he encountered told him in a spiritual way that the time had not yet come for the records hidden in that mountain to be discovered.

Neil's testimony had previously been carefully studied by Book of Mormon scholars in the RLDS. Independent studies and visions had pointed to the same mountain in Mexico, where Steede had his experience, as the real hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon. When someone wondered why the three Nephites returned to that mountain every April, someone had the insight that they were still keeping a record on metal plates of the significant events that had transpired in the previous year. Jesus had told the three: "...more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death, but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in My glory with the powers of heaven..." [3 Nephi 13:18, Restored Covenant Edition]

[Religion Moderator]

The word “apparently” made the statement an expression of the poster’s mind - not a reading of yours.

[greyfoxx39]

It's certainly a welcome change to have a member of the RLDS commenting here.

Should be an opportunity to learn the difference in the beliefs. Please do give us more on that.

It's been commented on other sites that the RLDS is actually moving more towards Christianity, but I'd have to be convinced of that.

[Elsie]

When someone wondered why the three Nephites returned to that mountain every April, someone had the insight that they were still keeping a record on metal plates of the significant events that had transpired in the previous year.

Ha ha!

The Nephites are AMISH! stuck using 1800's technology.

---

(That's 1800 BC, of course!)

[reaganaut]

Thank you AG, for you wonderful post. As always you are a light shining.

Your sister in Christ,

R

[reaganaut]

Don’t worry, stick around and you will learn the RF rules. It takes awhile.

[reaganaut]

Whoa! The Religion Moderator chastized me for “making it personal” by “reading someone’s mind”, etc., and the record shows that I accepted the chastizement and began avoiding “making it personal”. Where is the Religion Moderator now that you are characterizing me as “blinded by your desire to believe in Mormonism”?

- - - -
I used apparently.

[reaganaut]

Then I learned about the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which published the Book of Mormon, but which rejected the Mormon doctrine of plural wives, baptism for the dead, secret temple rites, etc. In a branch of the RLDS church I recognized the presence of the Holy Spirit, and was soon baptized.

- - - -
Ah. RLDS. Then I apologize for assuming you were Mormon.

I have some friends who are RLDS (now CoC) but they know less about their faith and history than most others so they could never answer my questions.

I was a member of SLC LDS for several years. I read the BoM, and believed it. But I was lied to about the LDS teachings. I was told one set of LDS history and doctrine by the missionaries and another after I joined. I spent several years trying to prove the LDS church ‘true’ only to find out they lie and whitewash their history. Also you are the first RLDS (that I am aware of on these threads) so it will be interesting to see your responses.

It also explains your focus on the BOM.

[reaganaut]

BTW, do you read the JST or do they have another version they prefer.

I just found my parallel JST/KJV bible published by Herald House (1970). Fascinating, especially since I had a problem with the LDS view that the JST wasn’t finished even though Smith stated that it was.

[John McDonnell]

Should be an opportunity to learn the difference in the beliefs. Please do give us more on that.

Although I am a member of the RLDS, which in 2001 changed its name to Community of Christ, I have become an inactive member, due to a violation of my rights as a member by a high priest who sought to direct my life by sending me an unwanted letter of counsel that claimed to be inspired by God. When I returned the letter with a note indicating that I did not accept that message as inspired of God, the high priest showed it, without my knowledge or consent, to the pastor. All my attempts to reconcile the situation, by having the high priest admit that what he did was inappropriate, failed, all ministers that I appealed to supporting the high priest and potraying me as the only one at fault. So I am hardly one to represent the Community of Christ's beliefs.

I express my religious opinions independently of any church organization. Here is a sample: Notes on Arthur Conan Doyle's A Study in Scarlet

[SZonian]

Bookmarked, thanks C and G!

[reaganaut]

I first read the Book of Mormon in an attempt to know why it is false, so that I could explain that falseness to others, rather than just badmouth it in an ignorant way.

- - - -
It’s ‘falseness’ is the fact that it is a fraud. It is that simple.

Now, I do understand that the BoM was written early on in Smith’s journey as a religious founder, and that Rigdon’s influence (esp the Cambellite doctrines) caused many doctrines to develop that are NOT found in the BoM, but rather appear in the D&C (LDS).

That would make sense since so much doctrinal passages are plagiarized from the KJV (and contrary to the JST) while the remainder ‘storyline’ passages come from several sources.

Does the RLDS still rely on feelings and Moroni’s promise? And do they still use the Book of Commandments? If so, which revelations (prior to 1844) do they keep and why?

BTW, the three Nephite thing is STILL a ridiculous claim and would get you kicked out of AIA.

And if the 3 Nephites are still around, then how could there be a universal apostasy? Were they excommunicated? Otherwise how could there have been no priesthood?