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To: 1000 silverlings
[All the stuff you say about God, and]His effable nature is Holy

"effable"? Not playing gotcha, just asking.

Clearly I agree, with possible quibbles around the edges, but I don't think there are any.

To MOI (everybody else's mileage may vary) the critical point is :

Whether the impossibility of God's lying a DISability or lack of some kind.

Objection:It would SEEM to be a disability, because we can imagine situations in which being able to tell a really persuasive lie would seem to be a good, a positive thing.

Sed contra: (stop me if you've heard this one before) The psalmist says, He does whatever pleases Him.

I answer that: In God there is no lack, no disability. It is only a manner of loose speech which presents the possibility of doing evil -- in this example of swerving from the truth -- as a positive ability.

And even in our own lives we find that speaking the truth requires knowledge and wisdom, as well courage and other virtues in differing situations. We may think that telling a really plausible lie is a 'gift' or a positive ability -- right up until the day we resolve to try to speak only the truth in love. Then we find that we are, as it were, addicted to putting our own spin on reality.

And this is not even to mention the painstaking task of find out all the lies we tell ourselves to get through the day.

Formally: Man pursues what he thinks to be good. He fails in the pursuit because of failing to know what is good AND because of lacking the strength and purity of will to choose effectively the good.

Reply to the objection: There is no such thing as an existent which is perfectly evil, since existence itself is a good. Similarly there is no perfectly evil act, as such. A particular sin involves faculties and powers which are good in themselves but which are, in the event, misdirected and perverted in their relationship to one another.

Also, reaching ultimate good may involve intermediate steps which appear evil, and the avoidance of which, for the time being, can be accomplished by an evil, like lying.

Therefore a capacity to sin may APPEAR to be an ability, since it involves goods (albeit misdirected and perverted) and seems to lead to goods (temporary evasion, for example, of the consequences of hitting the baseball through Mr. Wilson's window.) But this appearance is illusory.

Therefor the impossibility of God's lying is not a defect but a strength. And therefore it is more precise to say, It is impossible for God to lie," than to say "God cannot lie."

Thank you, I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitperson ... and try the veal: it's delicious.
1,957 posted on 05/05/2010 5:32:11 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Quia quem meruisti* portare, Alleluia // Resurrexit* sicut dixit. Alleluia)
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To: Mad Dawg

Sounds like we have an Aquinas in the house-:)

Very Nice!


1,958 posted on 05/05/2010 5:38:22 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Mad Dawg; 1000 silverlings; metmom; betty boop
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; - Titus 1:2

Seems to me that when we are discussing the point that God cannot lie, we ought to remember that when He says a thing it is. It is because He says it.

For the word of the LORD [is] right; and all his works [are done] in truth. He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast. – Psalms 33:4-9

After all, He created “all that there is” ex nihilo.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

And again,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

At the root there is nothing of which anything can be made but His will, either His creative will or His permissive will.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

And it is all for cause - the "final cause" being the new heaven and new earth wherein God will have gathered all of His adopted children and live with them forevermore (Revelation 21-22)

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. - Romans 8:28

God’s Name is I AM and Alpha and Omega.


1,963 posted on 05/05/2010 6:59:46 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Mad Dawg

lol, 2 o’clock in the morning post. Of course it’s “ineffable”. I was thinking about it later then starting laughing when I remembered the “reputes” I hit you with awhile back.


2,004 posted on 05/05/2010 9:33:27 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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