[count-your-change]

I'll not be so bold as to say you've gone astray but if Mary is to be viewed as the ‘patroness of Eve’ and ‘the rescuer of mankind from the bondage to death’ and ‘her obedience balances Eve's disobedience’ I just have ask where in the Scriptures this is found.

So if such ideas are found in Scripture, please inform me!

[Mad Dawg]

The passage saith:

And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin;

This is where one starts to want the original (instead of this klunky translation).

BUT, as I read this, Mary's "rescue" is presented as, so to speak, proportionate to Eve's getting us in the soup. SO, again as I read it (past tense, I was just sort of reading along ...) Ireneaus was saying that Eve contributes to our condemnation -- starts the process by which we end up in the soup -- and Mary contributes to our redemption.

And that's the say in which Mary's "fiat" balances Eve's disobedience. I'm seeing it like this:

Eve	Adam	Mary	Jesus
'starts' fall by eating 'apple', offering to adam	Completes Fall by accepting 'apple' from Eve	'starts' redemption by accepting vocation and 'bearing the fruit', to wit: Jesus	completes redemption by life, cross, etc.
listens to lucifer	...	Listens to Gabriel	...
takes fruit from tree	...	bears fruit FOR tree (cross)	...

Like that.

As to the "patroness" (advocate) thing, for us we all get to choose for whom we pray, and Mary by (through grace) getting it right seems suited to advocate for Eve. I don't know what theological proposition arises from this.

I know some folks here have said some of Irenaeus is spurious, and I must say this line of thought, tabulation, tidying things up strikes me as kind of late medieval-- that's just an impression.