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To: Mad Dawg; RnMomof7; boatbums

I read and studied and what I read and studied didn’t disagree with the teachings I had been raised with.

This is not any different from what I read and was taught as a Catholic, especially since Vatican II happened some years AFTER I was born.....

And since it would take a theological nuclear blast to change the minds of many Catholics older than I, that mindset never changed, even though it came from the Vatican itself. Many of the older Catholics strongly resisted the Vatican II pronouncements. I recall the furor over changing the mass from Latin to English, and to turn the altar around?

It bordered on heresy itself. The end of the world was around the corner. The church was denying its very essence.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm

Christian denominations, whether Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant, have historically taught that an afterlife awaits everyone. All people will eventually spend eternity in either:
bullet Heaven, where the rewards are beyond our wildest dreams, or
bullet Hell, where unbelievable levels of pain and suffering will last forever without any hope of relief.

Various denominations have taught that their particular followers have a better chance at attaining heaven, and that believers in other faith groups are either totally excluded from heaven or, at least, are more likely to go to Hell.

The author, who was brought up a Protestant, can recall a conversation over five decades ago with some Catholic friends from the neighborhood. He was taught in Sunday School that Catholics automatically go to Hell; his friends were taught in separate (Catholic, parochial) school that all Protestants end up in Hell.

These beliefs have since changed on both sides of the divide, as Christian faith groups have become more accepting of other denominations. Even beliefs about Hell itself have moderated; it is now seen by many religious groups to be simply a place of isolation from God.

There has been considerable movement by the Roman Catholic Church concerning the salvation status of non-Catholics. The church has gradually changed from an exclusivist to an inclusivist position, thus becoming more accepting of the validity of other Christian denominations and of other religions.

The fate of non-Catholics, as stated prior to Vatican II:

Before Vatican II, the Church consistently taught that only Roman Catholics had a chance to be saved and attain Heaven. Followers of other Christian denominations and of other religions would be automatically routed to Hell for all eternity:

* Pope Innocent III (circa 1160 - 1216 CE) is considered “one of the greatest popes of the Middle Ages...” 1 At the Fourth Lateran Council (a.k.a. the General Council of Lateran, and the Great Council) he wrote:

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.”

* Pope Boniface VIII (1235-1303 CE) promulgated a Papal Bull in 1302 CE titled Unam Sanctam (One Holy). He wrote, in part:

“Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins...In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Ephesians 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed....Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” 2

The last sentence in the original Latin reads: “Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis.” 3

* Pope Eugene IV, (1388-1447 CE) wrote a Papal bull in 1441 CE titled Cantate Domino. One paragraph reads:

“It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” 4


1,568 posted on 05/03/2010 6:59:29 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Do you really think I have not seen these quotes before?

These beliefs have since changed on both sides of the divide, as Christian faith groups have become more accepting of other denominations. Even beliefs about Hell itself have moderated; it is now seen by many religious groups to be simply a place of isolation from God.

Dante has a pagan get saved. In his tale, which no one is expected to take literally, the pagan in question is, resuscitated and baptized, and then allowed to die again, so that he can be saved. He did not get in trouble for writing this. And the meaning is clear: The boundaries of the Church are known to God, not to us.

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.”

This where one has to use one's head. Hint: View this as a definition of the Church, NOT just a statement about who gets saved and who doesn't. Christ does not have more than one body. The saved are members of the body.

Mutatis mutandis with Boniface's bull.

You can insist on reading it as if it says: "If you do not, before you die, submit yourself to the Pope, they're gonna set the oven to 'extra crispy.'" OR you can read it as I do, that if all those whom God chooses also had the grace to see that BY THAT CHOICE of GOD's they are subject to the Roman Pontiff, they're walk would have a whole lot more consolations than it does.

As to Pope Eugene: I DO think there is a special burden on tthose borught up in the Catholic Church to study and to travel far, if need be, to find the best advice and counsel before they apostasize.

But I do not think that God is a vindictive jerk trying to make it hard for those he loves. He understands better than you or I do that being brought up in dysfunctional families and dysfunctional parishes amounts to having the rational faculty and the will under unceasing attack. He knows when someone errs about WHERE truth and justice lie, and erring about that, chooses the wrong path.

And such invincibly ignorant apostates cannot really be held to be in mortal sin because they were misled by a buynch of really lousy Catholics who used religion as cover for their proposing their lousy, neurotic, problems.

I still think that when you say:,br>There has been considerable movement by the Roman Catholic Church concerning the salvation status of non-Catholics. The church has gradually changed from an exclusivist to an inclusivist position,
you are not putting the experience of your earlier life in the right slot in the hierarchy of truth.

1,578 posted on 05/03/2010 7:25:51 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Deus autem noster in caelo;* omnia quaecumque voluit fecit. Alleluia)
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To: metmom
Pope Eugene IV, (1388-1447 CE) wrote a Papal bull in 1441 CE titled Cantate Domino. One paragraph reads: “It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” 4

You know the church "that never changes?" Now they believe Muslims and jews and EVEN Protestants can be saved..

1,850 posted on 05/04/2010 1:52:29 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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