Give Your All To . . . ? . . . . [A Rel Forum Research thread--Open]

Bible, Vultus Christi, Quix's noggin ^ | 28 APR 2010; 30 APR 2010 | Jesus, Mark Kirby & Quix

[markomalley]

However, Mark, a LOT of your pontificators sound and write quite otherwise. . . . quite often.

A suggestion for you: why do you not ask these "pontificators" what importance they place upon God's Holy Word?

I would submit that the controversy is not the "pontificators'" opinion of God's Holy Word, but their opinion on specific interpretations of that Holy Word.

Just a thought.

[Quix]

Perhaps to a minor degree on a minor collection of stuff.

Otherwise, sorry, I have to disagree.

The worst horrors of the RELIGIOUS SYSTEM centered at the Vatican . . . do not, per se, come from mangled interpretations of God’s Word.

They come from whole cloth fabrications in history and fabrications taking galactic leaps away from God’s Word.

I wish I could see it differently.

[Pollster1]

I’m startled by the tone on this thread [not you personally, but this was a convenient point for my post]. I would very much prefer to see more respect from those of us who follow Jesus and His Word as written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, and James without the guidance of the Pope directed toward those who follow Jesus and His Word as written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, and James under the guidance of the Pope, and vice versa.

While I am not a Catholic, here’s my thoughts:

Nothing is more important in daily life than God’s Holy Word. I read the Bible daily, reading through cover to cover every year or so. I also jump around separately from that reading based on where I expect to find the guidance that I need for life’s problems as I encounter those challenges. My preferred translation is KJV or NKJV, but I also read the Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic to get a sense of the true meaning when the translations have multiple interpretations. [I doubt that many Christians will be shocked to find that the words of the older manuscripts never contradict the traditional interpretations of scripture.]

Do you refer to God’s Word when making personal doctrinal decisions on what to believe or not believe? Always. What better guidance could I find than a combination of scripture, prayer, reason, and tradition, tempered by group study and the feedback of others?

Do you believe that the Catholic Church refers to God’s Word when making doctrinal decisions? Almost always [note - as I said above, I am not Roman Catholic], and I believe they try to do so as a conscious and sincere choice.

[Quix]

THANKS MUCH for your kind reply to this thread and particularly to the sidebar on THE WORD.

1. Tone—I’m a pretty intense personality. And, with a LOT of small group process hours under my belt [3,000+], I’m used to enjoying a very intense dialogue.

2. Also, I have very strong opinions about what I consider to be idolatry and/or blasphemy. When it comes to GOD’S SUPREMACY AND THE SUPREMACY OF HIS WORD, I’m probably as fierce as I am about anything in life.

3. Understandably, a fair number of folks on a variety of ‘other sides,’ particularly those in the Roman Catholic et al camp—and very particularly those in that camp who are also in sub groups I label as ‘rabid cliques’ who seem to be “MORE ROMAN CATHOLIC THAN THE POPE” are quick to take offense and to fire back—often with harsh personal attacks.

4. That doesn’t bother me a great deal. I only desire for folks to learn and be led of The Lord. Whatever fodder facilitates that is pretty good alright with me.

Am blessed by your statements about THE WORD and your skills in the original languages. I need to make a note of your skills as I sometimes have questions you could answer.

For example, can you shed any light on the Scripture about God shortening the days in the END TIMES?

Is that days shorter than 24 hours or fewer days? I’ve been told that the Greek does not make it clear.

Welcome to this thread. I hope to hear more from you.

BTW, I have an

END TIMES/ DREAMS/ VISIONS/ PROPHECY ping list, if you are interested—with the following levels of interest available:

1ST TOP 10-20%, MOST IMPORTANT DOCS, POSTS, EVENTS
2ND TOP 1-50% OF DOCS, POSTS, EVENTS
3RD 1-80% OF DOCS, POSTS, EVENTS
4TH 1-100% OF DOCS, POSTS, EVENTS—almost everything I find interesting on the broad topic.
5TH ISRAEL ALL ISRAEL, ONLY ISRAEL
6th NOT USED
7th DREAM TEAM Quix’s personally invited intercessors, discerners, consultants.
8th WEEKLY—usually weekend collection of more significant links when I can remind myself to pause to do it.

I’m usually too busy to manage to get the 8th level done.

Sorry.

[mlizzy]

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body" --Matt 26:26.

In order to appreciate the value of the Real Presence in the spiritual life, we must go back in spirit to the event described by St. John when our Lord, after He had worked the miracle of the multiplication of the loaves and fishes, made the solemn promise of the Eucharist. "I am the Bread of Life," Christ declared on that occasion. "He who comes to me will never be hungry. He who believes in me will never thirst. But, as I have told you, you can see me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me and whoever comes to me, I shall not turn him away because I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but to do the will of the one who sent me. Now the will of him who sent me is that I should lose nothing of all that he has given to me and that I should raise it up on the last day. Yes, it is my Father's will that whoever sees the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life and that I shall raise him up on the last day" --Fr. John Hardon, S.J.

I have included a letter my husband received from Mother Teresa of Calcutta. A courageous soul for Christ (and current blessed of the Church), she suggested the readings of Fr. J. Hardon.

To dismiss the saints (and all miracles worked through them), is curious. One can only surmise that if you didn't feel they happened through Christ, then they must have happened through Satan, because they surely *did* happen. And how will you explain your disrespect (for instance, referring to Fr. John Hardon as "Johnny Hardon") of Christ's priests, blesseds, and saints, when you come to greet Him?

[Mad Dawg]

Interesting mathematics, that.

Seriously. It helps to do a little thinking about transfinite numbers.

A Zen monk was enlightened in the market place. A customer asked a butcher,"Which is the best cut of meat in the place?"

The butcher replied," Every cut is the best!"

I hope my wife knows I would lay down my life to protect hers. I hope my daughter knows I would lay down my life to protect hers. This Easter, when a death-threat was phoned to our church and I was asked to assume security duties, I hope the whole congregation would have known, had we told them, that I would lay down my life to protect theirs.

My whole approach to court-room security included as a defining element that, if the absolute worst happened, I would take a bullet for the judge.

So to whom do I give my all?

[Quix]

Perhaps like Eskimos and their many words for snow, you are lobbying for more words for

“ALL?”

Sorry. I don’t think the Heavenly dictionary has more than one meaning for “All.”

Our English usage is rather sloppy about it. God looks at the heart.

He demands first place, first and foremost and in largest measure 100% all.

By that I mean, He certainly allows and supports intimate and intense family relationships.

However, did you ever read

A SEVERE MERCY?

I think C.S. Lewis wrote the forward.

The individuals as young adults met and ended up marrying . . . reading every book the other had ever read. They were consumed by each other—it would be hard to describe a marriage where two were more united—particularly after becoming Christians but even before.

They exhaustively processed each day, their experiences, thoughts, feelings etc. with each other routinely.

Becoming Christians sort of interposed God between them where there had been nothing nor anyone else before.

God allowed the wife to contract and die of cancer.

Hence the title: A SEVERE MERCY.

Which . . . ultimately, it was.

I think Christians of all flavors play far tooooooooo loose and sloppy, shallowly with such concepts and truths as well as such language.

God REALLY DOES REQUIRE ALL OF US.

Certainly we are incapable of giving Him our all in this flawed world within our flawed skin and carcasses.

Yet, at every decision point, GOD IS WATCHING—WHICH DIRECTION WILL THE DECISION GO?

TOWARD GOD AND LIFE ETERNAL OR TOWARD ANYTHING ELSE AND DEATH ETERNAL?

HE REALLY DOES DEMAND OUR ALL. He really does not respond flatteringly to us when we compormise His supreme priority deserving our ALL.

[Mad Dawg]

Yeah. You know the guy that wrote A Severe mercy became a Catholic? (at least I think he did, I may have mixed him up with someone else. Lewis didn’t become a Catholic, but his “A grief Observed” and the story of his relationship with Joy is important.

But the premier writer (qua writer, not qua holy person) in this is Dante. In the manner of the age of troubadours, he falls in love with Beatrice with whom he never really makes contact. She dies, and one way to read the Comedy is that because she is in heaven the only way for him to reach her is to go to heaven.

A wonderful part is when they meet again at the top in Paradise of Purgatory Mountain. And after his long life of love towards her, and this blessed meeting which her intercession did much to bring about, what does she do?

She bawls him out!

Ah, true love!

Moral: Italian women! Look out!

[mlizzy]

GREAT DEPICTION. THX. Heading to the shower shortly myself.

It IS what it IS, Quix, a Eucharistic Miracle.

"Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist."

"During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size" --Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.

"Those who believe deeply in the Real Presence will benefit greatly from the Real Presence; those who believe weakly will also benefit accordingly. The Eucharist is capable of working miracles in our lives. So it can -- after all, the Eucharist is Jesus. He worked -- change the tense -- He works miracles, but as it depended then (remember, Christ could not work miracles in certain places for lack of faith), the same now. It depends on the depth and degree of our faith" --Father John A. Hardon, S.J.

[Quix]

LOL.

THX.

[Quix]

Interesting.

I remain skeptical.

Get back to me when you have scientific reports verifying that the

blood and DNA match up with the blood on the Shroud

and

with the blood and DNA Wyatt found sprinkled on the Mercy Seat of the hidden Ark of the Covenant.

[the_conscience]

The interplay between the Culture and the Church is a complicated, and to me, an interesting question. I don’t find Bill’s suppositions as too far off the mark. It’s my understanding that the Greek word for “Evangel” denoted, in those days, the good news of the deity of the Emperor. The Apostles transposed that word for Christ. So the language of a particular culture can be employed to express the concepts of Christianity.

Take for example a contemporary situation. It is popular in evangelical circles to claim that Christianity is NOT a religion. When I hear this I believe I understand, and agree, that what is meant is that our standing before God is not caused by any phenomenal act on our part. The problem is that I have a different definition for religion. When I think of the term religion I have the concept of worship and as the theologian Bob Dylan once sang, “Gotta Serve Somebody”. So IMO, everybody including Christians are religious. James tells us there is a thing called “true religion”. Thus it appears to me that the definition of the term religion has changed.

Thus I believe Bill is correct that the early Christians had to use terms of the existing culture as a means to express christian truths. The problem is when the pagan concepts related to those terms are incorporated into christian doctrine. That seems to be the tricky part. How do you incorporate the terms of culture without incorporating the pagan aspects of that term? The Reformers understood this and that’s why one of the most famous slogans of the Reformation was Semper Reformata, always reforming.

And we’re not immune from this same problem today. When I observe the programs of Schuller, Warren, and Hyble and their ilk of trying to be “relevant” to the culture I ask what are they sacrificing to be “relevant”? IMO, their programs of making Christian worship entertaining is taking a pagan concept and incorporating it into christian dogma.

The Romanists (and Orthodox) have a real problem because of the fact that they have deified Tradition. Because of that fact they are unable to rid themselves of pagan influences. The Romanists will try on occasion to correct themselves, as evidenced by VatII, but because they have deified Tradition they end up being completely irrational because they need to try to synthesize contradictions and they produce reams of sophistry to try to support their irrationalism.

So the task seems to be to understand the underlying concepts behind a term. Terms by themselves are not necessarily pagan. The actions working out of the terms will determine whether or not a pagan concept is part of the term.

[Quix]

Thanks for the many fine points in your excellent post.

[mlizzy]

My husband and I were fortunate to see the following exhibition of some 140 Eucharistic Miracles charted and approved by the Catholic Church.

The Eucharistic Miracles of the World

St. Therese of Lisieux ("The Little Flower") -- There Therese expresses the joy she experienced after receiving Holy Communion on that occasion.

"It was a totally heavenly happiness which words cannot express. And what shall our happiness be when we receive Communion in the eternal abode of the King of Heaven? Then we shall see our joy never coming to an end; there will no longer be the sadness of departings, and it will be no longer necessary to have some souvenir to dig fervently into the walls sanctified by His divine presence, for His home will be ours for all eternity."

What the Little Flower is saying deserves to be memorized. The Eucharist on earth is both the anticipation and the promise of the heaven where the Christ, who is hidden in the Blessed Sacrament will be seen face to face in the heavenly home where He is awaiting us.

One more quotation from St. Therese should be made. She declares, without reservation, that

“The best means to reach perfection is through receiving Holy Communion frequently. Experience sufficiently proves it in those who practice it.”

In other words, receiving our Lord in the Eucharist here on earth is the surest guarantee of joining Him in that everlasting home where He is waiting for us. --Father John A. Hardon on St. Therese of Lisieux

[Quix]

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

[Iscool]

And how will you explain your disrespect (for instance, referring to Fr. John Hardon as "Johnny Hardon") of Christ's priests, blesseds, and saints, when you come to greet Him?

I'm counting on the word of God to be completely true...In which case, Jesus Christ doesn't have any priests in the church...

I don't expect to see too many of your priests in Heaven...

Your religion has for itself claimed to take over the covenant promised to Israel by God...As a result, the scriptures have become a complete mystery to you...Without knowing that God still has His covenant with the Jews, to be fulfilled in short order, all you can get out of scripture is the history in it...

Rejecting the epistles of Paul that were God breathed just as the Gospels, you have rejected the way of salvation for sinners...

You folks admittedly plan on living thru the Great Tribulation (those that believe in it) and facing your Judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment...

There will be no Christians at that Judgment...Christians are judged the moment they die and they are judged 'just'...

While you are living on Earth during the Tribulation, the church, the Espoused Bride of Christ will be getting married...

They tell you the book of Revelation is a metaphor and an allegory...But they can't tell you what it represents...That ought to tell you something...

No, I don't fear setting your priests straight in the sight of God...They are the ones that need to fear...

[RnMomof7]

1. Who is the first person in Scripture to call Mary ‘Blessed’? The first place in the Bible where you will find the answer is Luke 1:28.

Catholics consistently misread the word Blessed.. the word is not an adjective it is a verb ... it is not BLESS ED as Catholics pronounce it, it is blessed.The angel was telling Mary she was blessed by God.. It did bot have to do with HER..it had to do with God

She was blessed by having the honor to carry the Savior ...THAT was the point. Not that she was sinless ...

[Quix]

It did bot have to do with HER..it had to do with God

---

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

[Pollster1]

For example, can you shed any light on the Scripture about God shortening the days in the END TIMES? Is that days shorter than 24 hours or fewer days? I’ve been told that the Greek does not make it clear.

That is unfortunately one area in which I am clueless. I seem to have almost no insight at all into the meaning of Matthew 24, most of the Revelation, and similar passages. As for the precise words in Greek, Matthew and Mark use words that I would translate as "cut short", but I can't even guess whether they mean days under 24 hours or fewer of those days. Luke talks about signs in the sky, which makes either interpretation plausible. I just don't know. Sorry.

[RnMomof7]

St. Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort said it best in his book ‘True Devotion to Mary’, “Let no one presume to hope for the mercy of GOD, who dares to slight or offend GOD’s mother.”

I know he was a proponent of the rosary ... he encouraged young priests to pray the rosary as he did.

I suspect this is one of many Catholic "saints" that this day burn in hell..

let no one presume mercy from God if they made Mary an idol and placed her where only Christ should be..