Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. |
Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, I want to be completely transparent with thee, Praying in this way, I can be at rest, |
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“Wag” is not your screen name. I made an observation regarding some members of your church, as far as this “key” business. If you feel that this observation applies to you, then it does, but it certainly was not directed at you in particular.
A “key” to knowledge only held by this or that sect has more than just an echo of gnosticism, hence the original observation. Kabbalists predate the publication of the likely-fraudulent book that I mentioned by millenia, as does gnosticism. If this is not what you believe, then advocate what you *do* believe. That’s what I’ve done; I’ve been very frank and forthright.
I expect no less from you.
Given what you have posted regarding Paul, there is no evidence of it.
And conversely, you guys admit that Paul's writings are pretty hard for you to understand
No, we admit that we must make sure that we do not go off into heresies like so many heretics over the millennia.
Paul doesn't make much sense...He's insane...
Negative to both. He is one of the two greatest Apostles.
whoever has the Gospel of Jesus Christ, understands it, preaches and teaches it, has the keys to the kingdom. We are called to it, told to be worthy of it, and Paul said he and others were workers in it.
And Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon agrees. #863.
Binding and loosing thus were of broad meaning but clearly the actions had already taken place by God's decision and Peter could affirm that by inspiration.
Would you direct me to some Sriptural basis for so saying?
Thanks. A man is known by his enemies.
That would be Scriptural..spelcheek not wrking
Do not overlook the preceding words Wag.. They were being shown that their spiritual lives and ministry were under the authority of God and not their own.
Can you think of one instance where the apostles forgave someone's sins or with held forgiveness?So they must not have understood it as literally as many take it,
What we did see was them exercise ecclesiastical authority to excommunicate unrepentant sinners ..
It was 1200 before the church instituted confession to a priest.. so it seems it was not as clear as you want to present it..
Jesus said to pray like this ".....Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us.. ..Not as peter forgives us :)
Matthew 21:31. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him:
Give me a break!
A “key” to knowledge only held by this or that sect has more than just an echo of gnosticism, hence the original observation.
Fascinating, that has NOTHING to do with anything the Catholic Church teaches about Matthew 16:19.
Kabbalists predate the publication of the likely-fraudulent book that I mentioned by millenia, as does gnosticism.
Kabbalism has NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church either.
If this is not what you believe, then advocate what you *do* believe.
My beliefs are well stated on this thread already.
That’s what I’ve done; I’ve been very frank and forthright.
No, you've offered an opinion of what you think others and tried to tie it in wit the Kabbala somehow. You've said nothing about what you believe.
I'm sure you would try to make it less offensive if you could find a way to do that, dear brother in Christ, one that would not compromise your sense of "Biblical integrity, accuracy, and personal straight-forwardness." On the other hand, it is difficult to conceive what the purpose of this thread might be, other than to set the stage for Catholic bashing (given the historical record). Yet another in a long succession of same, though this one has caused an unusually high degree of offense to many Catholic FReepers, as I have learned via private FReepmail. And all this has somehow been (mis)labeled as a "research thread."
I'm not angry with you, dear brother Quix. Though I do despair of our ever coming to common ground in our theological understandings — and that seems pretty odd to me, because we're both biblically based. And I have been wondering about that. Some thoughts:
I gather you adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. I do not. In the first place, I believe that God gave us four Revelations — the Holy Scriptures; the Incarnation of Christ (Son of God, Logos, Redemptor, and Judge); the Book of Creation (i.e., the natural world of human experience, the outworking of the Logos of the Beginning, unto its End); and the Holy Spirit Who abides with us. Each is fully consistent with all the others — there are no contradictions among revelations. At least I have not found any in about a half century of "proofing" the problem....
Someone recently suggested that Catholics are idolators because they "bow down to [statues of] Mary." Evidently such people take the Old Testament proscription of graven images very much to heart — even though with His New Dispensation, Christ made everything anew....
But if one thinks an idol, by definition, is a graven (physically tangible) image of some kind, then one will likely overlook the possibility of an intangible idol. There's nothing that says an idol has to be tangible — a statue, a painting, a religious relic, etc. All an idol is, is something we put before God in our most hallowed worship, despite the First Great Commandment's clarion call to us:
Matthew 22:37 And He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'"And your neighbor as yourself." This second command is a corollary of the First Great Commandment, and our fidelity to the second is sign and testimony of our fidelity to the First.Mark 12:30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Luke 10:27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Respecting intangible idols,
Question: "What is bibliolatry?"
Answer: The term bibliolatry comes from combining the Greek words for Bible and worship. In a Christian context, simply stated, bibliolatry is the worship of the Bible. Typically, the accusation of bibliolatry is used as an attack on those who hold to the inerrancy, infallibility, and supremacy of Scripture. It is often employed as an inflammatory and derogatory attack on believers who hold to “sola scriptura” and/or a literal interpretation of the Bible.I am not "accusing" you or anybody else of being a bibliolator. But if you took offense all the same, understand that is how Catholics feel when they are called idolators because they "bow down and worship [a statue of] Mary."It is important to note that the charge of bibliolatry does not claim some Christians literally bow down before a Bible and worship it, as if it were an idol. While there may be some strange cult out there that literally worships the Bible, that is not what bibliolatry is referring to. The accusation of bibliolatry is that some Christians elevate the Bible to the point that it is equal with God, or to the point that studying the Bible is more important than developing a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. [itals added]
In general, Catholics do not pray to the Holy Mother, rather through her. She is not the "end" of worship. She points always to her Son. I can probably say this over and over, and still not be understood by people who are generally already unsympathetic to Catholic thought.
But to get back to the Bible — one of the four great Revelations of God. There are different ways to read the Holy Scriptures. Some read it at the level of "face value," plain, "literal" text — akin to the way one reads, say, a textbook or an instruction manual. Others read it as the most sublime piece of literary art in the history of the world — literally supernatural in its perfection — akin to a cosmic work of poetry.
As a work of literature, the Holy Bible remains the single greatest "best-seller" of all times, with 20 million volumes sold in more than 2,000 languages each and every year.... But I digress.
On the second type of reading, the language is not literal (i.e., denotative); it is symbolic and allusive (i.e., connotative). Depending on how one reads the work, different understandings are possible. But the fact remains that all understandings are premised on God's Truth in the first place (the divine language of the text), according to the Light He gives us, via the Holy Spirit, at whatever given stage of our spiritual development, our walk with Christ, we may have attained.
God does not save by groups. He saves souls one by one. And HE alone judges.
wmfights allows that I was correct to point this out:
Matt 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. (2) For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged...But then he added:
If the lesson ended there you might be right, but it finishes with:In what way does my refusal to judge another human soul have anything to do with me giving holy things to dogs, or casting pearls before swine? There must already have been a judgment, if we conclude we are dealing with swine and dogs — but this is precisely the type of judgment we are not supposed to make (cf. Matt 1–2)! I.e., to judge that a fellow human being is a "pig" or a "dog"....
Matt. 7:6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine,...
Earlier I raised a couple of potential objections with Dr. Eckleburg regarding her perception of implicit blasphemy in the names of Mary; but more importantly, the distinctions, if any, between faith and reason. Essentially she stuck to her guns on the former; she simply reiterated her position without further ado. WRT the second point, she totally ignored it.
To reprise that second point here, I wrote: "There is faith, and there is reason. Faith cannot be reduced to reason — but if one tries to do that, it seems to me one loses both."
That, to me, is a point well worth pondering.
Which I have done, and continue to do. But I am already overlong here, so need to conclude.
So I'll just say, without good faith and good will, "research threads" like this one are exercises in futility and frustration; and I do not see what purpose they serve. I will no longer be a party to such.
Anyhoot, all the above is set forth according to my faithful understanding. I do not presume to speak for Roman Catholics. Possibly Roman Catholics would not agree with me on every point.
You, dear Quix, are my brother in Christ and I honor and respect you as such.
You and all your dear ones are in my thoughts and prayers.
PAX CHRISTI
Please.....the subject was “keys”.
“whoever has the Gospel of Jesus Christ, understands it, preaches and teaches it, has the keys to the kingdom.
If you don’t know just say so or do a quick search but belief in the gospel was not called a “key” that Peter used.
well I don’t understand your question. What are you saying that Peter had that’s so special to Peter?
Please see posts #1996 and 2010.
I suppose, but Paul had the same , so it’s not unique to Peter. Even Philip had one, it’s still the Gospel and the spiritual understanding of Christ, that’s the key or keys, to the kingdom.
The keys Jesus spoke of were unique to Peter, who else did Christ say would use “keys of the kingdom”?
Peter wasn’t the only one standing there, the other , all or some of the apostles were there as well, maybe some disciples, we don’t know. Is Peter “the rock” upon which the church is built?
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Mark 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
So now what?
The pope or a priest refuses to forgive sin and what happens to him then?
Outstanding post!
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