Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. |
Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, I want to be completely transparent with thee, Praying in this way, I can be at rest, |
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Before I shut down for the night here ...
Here's the deal, as I see it. The initial contention was "can God do 'whatever He wants'?"
I argued yes.
Why?
Two main reasons. First because I am a catholic and I pray the daily office, the psalms kind of rattle around in my head, and I remembered that psalm 115, which is a doozy in any event, says God does whatever pleases Him.
Now before I get to the second reason I want to point out that one of the things to which we are called is transformation by the renewal of our minds, right?
Now the normal everyday mind looks at the common ideas of omnipotence and decides that, well, there are things God cannot do. But the mind offering itself to God for transformation finds something else.
It finds that it has been holding onto a bad idea of power and freedom.If it is willing to let those old ideas go, then we find that Psalm 115 can be right at the same time as the passages quoted to show an apparent (but not real) limitation to God's power.
Note, it's important that the Psalm says God DOES whatever pleases Him. There is no unactualized potentiality in God. In fact there is no potentiality in God at ALL, He is all act and no potency. He does, he always has done and always will do and right now does what he is.
As it happens, speaking academically, this kind of thought arises from Aristotle and comes to the Church largely through Aquinas. While non-Catholics are telling us we are not Scriptural enough, it is our Scholastics who give us a way to affirm with enthusiasm what the Bible says about God.
We are all swallowing the camel of the Divine inspiration of a collection of books the youngest of which is almost 2k years old. It is the gnat of Aquinas which seems to cause the gag reflex.
Just sayin'.
Awesome question!
Proposed skeleton for future discussion. Mercy is the perfection of Justice - Holiness is the perfection of Charity.
fading fast here. ...
It’s a shame Catholics divide their attentions like that.
They can’t give it all to Jesus when Mary and the saints are getting so much of it.
If they gave the devotion to Jesus that they give to Mary (and the saints) they’d set the world on fire.
I daresay, Quix, that your thread really did accomplish it’s purpose. People showed who they give their all to.
And I get all that...It just seemed like it was devolving into the old “Can God make a rock so big he can’t pick it up?” kinda argument. I think you were saying the same thing, in general. One coming at it from “God does what ever he wants”, and, “God will not do certain things because his intrinsic nature precludes him”.
Anyway, hope you both have a blessed and peaceful night.
GREAT TRUTH IN YOUR ASSERTIONS. THANKS:
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It’s a shame Catholics divide their attentions like that.
They can’t give it all to Jesus when Mary and the saints are getting so much of it.
If they gave the devotion to Jesus that they give to Mary (and the saints) they’d set the world on fire.
I daresay, Quix, that your thread really did accomplish it’s purpose. People showed who they give their all to.
Actually, that's about how it started. *God can do anything He wants*.
Um, no. It's a false premise. No point even trying to argue that He can.
Because God is pure act He DOES now whatever he "wants" to do, or whatever "pleases" him.
I put those words in quotes because "want" which still suggests "lack" cannot rightly be applied to God. And neither can "please, since God has no appetites to be pleased.
What is left, though, is "will." More colloquially we can phrase the proposition as "God does whatever He chooses."
Now, to choose the evil, or to choose what is contrary to what one is is not REALLY choosing, but failing to choose. Humans fail to choose, because we are fallen and the effects of our fall include weakness in knowing what is good and weakness in conforming our knowing to our choosing.
But God possesses all power. SO he does not have the weakness of intellect and will that we have.
Therefore he only "wants" what is in accord with His nature as God and only what is Good.
Therefore it is impossible for God to change or to lie ( or to WANT to change or to lie) because the first is not in accord with His nature and the second is also an evil.
So God CAN do whatever He wants. That, however is not the same as saying God can do anything one could imagine.
So examination of the "trick question" can lead to useful thought about the nature of God, of will, of desire, of want, of choosing, and of reason.
And thank you for your encouragement!
That's a good way of stating it. Thanks. I still think y'all were basically saying the same thing, but that's just me. :o)
TRUE. TRUE.
THX TONS for your kind encouragement.
THX BIG.
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19
In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) - John 7:37-39
WELL PUT.
THX BIG.
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
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