Posted on 04/29/2010 10:34:06 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
Please note that observant “white” Catholics—and Mormons and Orthodox, supported McCain—at about the same rate. I am not so sure you should say that the “Catholics” in the North East or the Hispanics were much motivated by religion. The furor over the Arizona suggested that race was the driving force.
Yes, and secular authority tried to gain control over the church in the first three centuries A.D. too, didn’t it? What did the church do? The answer: she was martyred in her thousands. And the more that were killed the more rose up to take their place. Who won that conflict? Constantine decriminalized Christianity in 325 A.D. The state simply gave up in the face of what it could not understand and could not see and therefore could not defeat. But such is the way of God. He is a good and wise king, and a brilliant general, even though we usually do not understand or trust his strategy or tactics.
Do you not see that you make my point for me? The popes tried to win by using secular means in pursuit of secular ends that would benefit - or so they thought - the kingdom of God that is within each of us who believes. The popes left us with a mess bigger by far than the mess Obama is leading us into (and he is most certainly leading us into a mess!).
You said,
“The pope was the main organizer of resistence to the Muslims.”
... and wasn’t that a success? They are still here more than a thousand years later, more bitter and determined than ever, and they have learned to view the cross of Christ as the symbol of the blood-thirsty crusader. Far better it would have been to leave such things to the kings of those days and thus leave the skirts of the bride of Christ unsullied with the crimson stain of the work of the sword, an instrument God gave to the king, not to the church! Read Romans 13! Far better it would have been to leave the cross of Christ stained only with His blood.
Where would Western Civilization be without an institution and unifying center such as the Catholic Church to bring it together in religion, in it’s fight against the various invaders of the past.
It isn’t fair to compare different dark periods of Western history, the Church consists of humans, and humans are imperfect, have an organization for 1700 years and you will have fuel for every argument that you want to make, good or bad.
American slavery needs to be seen in it’s historical context, so do different periods of Church history, a person can’t jump around from century to century of world history and human behavior, and cultural and societal norms and constantly apply our current sensitivities to that era and then say “aha!” the Catholic Church!.
History isn’t over, Islam is here again, and a combination of the Catholic Church and meaty, American Protestant Christianity is needed to defeat it.
Those people that you dismiss are Catholics, and part of the Catholic vote and the Catholic faith.
Being white is not required.
ansel12 wrote:
“Where would Western Civilization be without an institution and unifying center such as the Catholic Church to bring it together in religion, in it’s fight against the various invaders of the past.”
I can see that you are an optimist. But the truth is that you don’t even know the answer to your own question. You assume that the answer would be that Western Civilization would be worse off. But, you know, you could very well be wrong, dead wrong. If the pope had simply followed the way of Christ, the way of the apostles, the way of the martyrs we so praise in the Te Deum Laudamus, maybe we would have won, just as we won over the pagan religion of the divine emperors of Rome. Don’t be so sure that you understand history better than God Himself.
In the same way, Obama is quick to ask where would we be if he hadn’t bailed out the banks (TARP ... and, yes, I know that happened on Bush’s watch, but with tremendous pressure from Obama and the Dems) and hadn’t stimulated the economy with $787,000,000,000. My answer to his question would be: maybe we would have been a helluvalot (this is kingdom-of-the-left phraseology, if you were wondering) better off than we are now.
“History isn’t over, Islam is here again, and a combination of the Catholic Church and meaty, American Protestant Christianity is needed to defeat it.”
To dream of the church defeating a faith, false as it is, with swords is just too sad for words. If this is your thinking and your strategy, we have already lost.
... and lest you think me a dreamy-eyed idealist and squishy pacifist, I give you this example from American history. Who beat the snot out of the Barbary pirates, John Adams or Thomas Jefferson? Why? Think before you answer.
Weird, that is internal to you, don't put your internal ideas on me.
"In the same way, Obama is quick to ask where would we be if he hadn’t bailed out the banks (TARP ... and, yes, I know that happened on Bush’s watch, but with tremendous pressure from Obama and the Dems) and hadn’t stimulated the economy with $787,000,000,000."
A 1700 year history fantasy rewrite, (which you did not fill in), and a Obama tie in.
I think I will pass on a your insights.
“I think I will pass on a your insights.”
That is your right, thank God, in this still free country.
It is also your right to decide not to ponder on history and the plain meaning of God’s word.
Politically, you and I are probably very close. But you have reached your position, at least in regard to Islam and what should be done by the threat is poses to a) the Christian Church and b) Western Civilization (these are separate questions), by quite a different path.
Oh, and I haven’t done a “1700 year history fantasy rewrite.” So, please, do not put such words into my mouth. I merely pointed out that if the popes had not presumed to be political leaders and generals and had merely remained the preachers and teachers of God’s word that they should have remained by calling and training, history would have turned out differently and, perhaps, much better. My only rationale for that suggestion is that doing God’s will has the benefit of going in the path of God. And He has a pretty good track record. But then, I am only a theologian, what do I know of history?
"To dream of the church defeating a faith, false as it is, with swords is just too sad for words. If this is your thinking and your strategy, we have already lost."
Stroke yourself all you want, but don't try and drag me into your closet.
In fact, I suspect that one thing that will calm these public demonstrations is a few well-placed admonitions to the leaders: You will be arrested and tried in a court of law. And Obammy can be impeached.
The war between the Muslims and the West has ebbed and flowed. The Turkish advance into Europe was halted at Vienna in the 1520s by the Hapsburgs. Their advance into the Western Mediterranean by the Knights of Malta and
a Christian fleet at Lepanto prevented an Turkish invasion of Italy in 1570. More than a hundreds years later, they were stopped before the gates of Vienna, where forces led by the king of Poland routed them, thus beginning the Christian reconquest of the Balkans. From 1698 to 1919, Islam was in constant retreat. Their resurgence during the last generation can be attributed to a loss of faith in Western Europe, not only in Christianity but in the future itself. The Pill seems to be the suicide pill of western civilization.
No, I don't think you have. There is a difference between the Democrat party of 1936 and the Democrat party of today. You are still ignoring my main point: that when the Democrat party embraced immorality, its Black chr*stian constituency did so also in lockstep. This is what I don't understand, not Black support for welfare or affirmative action (which aren't my issues anyway).
You are correct, and that baffles all of us, I'm always at a loss on trying to explain that, I have a sense that it isn't pretty and I'm glad that we never go down that road here.
I'm not sure what "road" you're talking about.
BTW: The last time the Catholics and "Protestants" (in this case Anglicans) united against a common enemy (the Puritans) it turned out disastrous for the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church has been on the losing side of every political and cultural battle in the WEST since the Enlightenment. I hope this is NOT true on abortion.
I thought I was agreeing with that exactly, but I'm not going to waste anymore effort in trying to convince you of that.
The "road" is the in depth conversation about why blacks vote as they do, again, your lack of perception is a little amazing.
Liberalism and the Catholic voter is what makes us weak, get Catholics to become conservative and America wins.
Importing millions more liberal Catholics only spells doom for America and it always has been our downfall.
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