Nicholai Carpathia ponders this end time scenario ...
Posted on 04/19/2010 11:45:07 AM PDT by TaraP
LOL. Like I said, pagan.
I suppose I always knew you would get to that ...
There was not a giant Jesus standing on clouds ...
There is none in the text of Matt 24 either ...
but there was a marauding army, which was the form taken by His coming
So his 2nd coming wasn't a literal event of him coming in the clouds, but rather it was actually a Roman army coming to destroy Jerusalem?
the Babylonian captivity was prophesied using similar language, and was also fulfilled by an enemy army.
Yes, and the Babylonian captivity prophecy was fulfilled LITERALLY! ... Habakkuk prophesied a literal army would come and put Israel into captivity ... it came true literally.
Its kind of ironic that you would argue that a literal interpretation of the Babylonia captivity supports your non-literal interpretation of the second coming.
Wrapped around the axle officially ...
"Here endeth the lesson ... "
There’s confusion surrounding the use of the term “historic premillennial.” “Historic” here means that it’s the kind of premillennialism that was usual before the days of Darby and the dispensationalists. It goes back to the ante-Nicene fathers. But “historicist” is also a term used to describe a method of interpreting Daniel and Revelation as being gradually fulfilled during the church age. Historicists can be premil, postmil, or amil. Not all “historic premillennialists” are historicists, however. I like to avoid the term and prefer “classic.” Like classic Coke.
I made an error... read everything too quickly. If the agreement was signed on 01 Jan 2007, then 3.5 years from then is July 2010.
Gotcha..., I see what you’re saying ... :-)
If you cross your eyes, recite the 9 times tables out loud 36 times, bend over so that the top of your head faces the planet of Venus-but only when it is quarter moon and high tide, you will see how this all works out perfectly to show that my calculations are correct!
Well..., those who practice this "smorgasbord eschatology" probably are like that ... LOL ...
But, as I was saying earlier, this is not something that those of the Dispensational/Pre-Millennial/Pre-Tribulational eschatology would be proposing ...
See Post #184 ...
But the 7-year deal has not been announced, and most likely, not finalized yet.
Whatever that 7-year agreement has to do with, by implication (of what the Bible says) it seems that it's going to have to do with the rebuilding of the Temple, as I can't see that happening without some kind of agreement with the Palestinians (whether it's an "enforced agreement" or not).
Also, it's something that has to do with the final status of Jerusalem, as that's also one of the big contentions between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
And then, stemming from those things (and whatever other minor details remain) -- it's got to be a "comprehensive agreement" (and "final") as it "seemingly" ushers in a time of peace (although we know it to be a false peace).
It's after all that is done and the supposed period of peace comes about, with all the issues seemingly settled and the Temple rebuilt and the sacrifices going on, that the Antichrist steps in and stops the sacrifices and declares himself to be god to the entire world and is the ultimate, full and complete ruler of the planet earth.
It's at that point that God's final and full wrath falls down on the earth.
by Dave Hunt
January 1, 2004
The “Quartet” of Bush, Putin, UN, and EU is determined, through a division of land, to bring a “just and lasting peace” into the Middle East between Israel and her neighbors. Assuming they are sincere and not just working for their own interests, their mental state must be on a par with those who gave the Nobel Peace Prize to Yasser Arafat, a mass murderer, habitual liar, and the world’s leading terrorist, who has done more than anyone to destroy world peace. How thankful the West should be that Al Gore (who repeatedly, as vice president, warmly received Arafat into the White House) is not there now as president!
In fact, Muhammad, whose word cannot be changed, imposed upon every Muslim in every age the duty of exterminating all Jews. Only then can the “Last Day” (the climax of Islam) arrive. That fact makes “peace” between Israel and Muslims impossible—ever. Any apparent “peace” agreements signed by Muslim leaders are not worth the ink in their signatures! In the ten years prior to the signing of the Oslo Accords, 211 Israelis were killed by terrorists; in the ten years since, about 1,200 have been killed and 5,000 wounded.
No Arab/Muslim political or religious leader can contradict Islam’s founding prophet. Thus to continue to pursue a negotiated “peace” in the Middle East is the height of folly! Yet Western political and religious leaders continue to hold out that vain hope and to force concessions upon Israel that pave the road to her destruction!
Modern Israel occupies a relatively small piece of land. Arabs possess 700 times as much, with vast amounts of oil and minerals. Why are they determined to possess tiny Israel too? Islam says it belongs to them!
A sovereign Jewish state proves that Muhammad was a false prophet, and that Allah is not God. Muslims must destroy Israel!
Both the Bible and Qur’an agree that 4,000 years ago God gave the Promised Land to Abraham and his Israeli descendants. Yet, the Arabs claim ownership through Ishmael, Abraham’s first son. But God declared that not Ishmael, but Isaac, who would be born to Sarah, was the son and heir He had promised (Gen 17:15-21).
Like his father, Isaac also had two sons, Esau and Jacob; and again the Lord rejected the firstborn and gave the inheritance to the second—so the inheritance flows from Abraham to Isaac and on to Jacob, whose name God changed to Israel. Twelve times Yahweh calls Himself “the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,” declaring, “this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial to all generations” (Ex 3:15). More than 200 times, from Exodus 5:1 to Luke 1:68, Yahweh is called “the God of Israel.”
Muslims claim that the Bible was corrupted by later revisions. However, the Bible’s thousands of manuscripts, historical and prophetic accuracy, and the intricate integration of themes from Genesis to Revelation (none of which the Qur’an can boast!) reduce such a claim to nonsense. Furthermore, the Qur’an itself supports what the Bible says concerning Israel’s claim to the Promised Land:
“We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel” (Surah 5:70); “We brought the children of Israel across the [Red] sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them...” (10:91). “…[B]ut we drowned him and those with him all together. And we said unto the Children of Israel...dwell in the land [and] hereafter...we shall bring you...out of various nations” (17:103, 104); “[W]e delivered the children of Israel... from Pharaoh....We chose them, purposely, above all creatures” (44:30-32); “favored them above all peoples” (45:16); “Remember Allah’s favor to you...He...gave you what he gave no other of his creatures. O my people, go into the Holy Land which Allah hath ordained for you” (95:20, 21); etc.
The territory God gave to Abram (later renamed Abraham by God) and to his descend-ants was not “Palestine,” but Canaan: “Into the land of Canaan they came” (Gen 12:5, 6). There were no “Palestinians” from whom those who take that name today claim to be descended: “the Canaanite and Perizzite dwelled then in the land” (13:7).
Abram remained there the rest of his life: “...Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan” (13:12). God told him, “For all the land...to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever” (13:15); “...all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession” (Gen 17:8).
Abram settled in Hebron in Canaan and “built there an altar to the LORD [Yahweh]” (13:18)—not to Allah. Ten years later, Ishmael (the product of Abraham’s and Sarah’s unbelief) was born to him through Sarah’s maid, Hagar. Fourteen years later, when Abraham was 100 years old and Sarah 90, Isaac was born in Hebron to Abraham by his wife Sarah, exactly as God had promised.
Thirty-seven years later, at the age of 127, Sarah died. Abraham was still living in Hebron, having been there more than 70 years. To bury Sarah, he bought the cave of Machpelah from Ephron the Hittite (23:1-20).
Thirty-eight years later, at the age of 175, Abraham died. Isaac and Ishmael buried him in Machpelah next to Sarah. Isaac lived in Hebron 110 more years. Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, and Leah were also buried in the cave of Machpelah.
Abraham had entered Canaan 400 years after the flood and 300 years after the Tower of Babel. It was sparsely settled, the land was his for the taking, and he, Isaac, Jacob, and their families, lived there more than 300 years before temporarily moving to Egypt to escape a famine. There, for 400 years they were slaves, just as God had said, until the Canaanites became so wicked that He was forced to destroy them. God used Israel for that task, giving them Canaan as an everlasting heritage (Gn 15:13-16), as He had promised.
God referred to Isaac as Abraham’s “only son” (Gen 22:2). Thus Ishmael was not buried in Machpelah, but where he had settled far away, having “died in the presence of all his brethren” (Gen 25:17, 18). No Arab or Muslim was ever buried in Machpelah.
Arabs can't claim a pure descent from Ishmael. Ishmaelites intermarried with Midianites (Judg 8:5,12,22,24), Edomites (Gen 28:9), and Hittites (26:34; 36:1-4). In contrast, during 400 years as slaves in Egypt, the Israelites became an identifiable ethnic people who were led en masse into Canaan. We know who they are today.
Denying Israel’s God-given heritage, Yitzak Rabin, who had secretly promised Clinton he would give up the Golan, declared, “The Bible is not a geography book.” Shortly thereafter, he was assassinated, preventing him from giving to Syria the most strategically vital part of Israel.
It was not Arabs but Hebrews who settled in ancient Hebron and all of Canaan, creating Israel, whose kings ruled from Jerusalem over an empire stretching from the Sinai to the Euphrates. Around 600 B.C. they were conquered by the Babylonians and scattered to many nations.
Chased out of their land under God’s judgment in the Babylonian dispersion, and later twice by the Romans, numbers of Jews always returned. This despised people continued living in Israel under the oppressive heel of various occupying foreign invaders for another 2,500 years. On May 14, 1948, Israel declared itself an independent nation once again. The Jews once again possessed their own land, as God had promised—but only that small fraction of it that had been allotted by the UN partition on November 29, 1947.
In contrast, the Arabs never lived in Canaan, but settled in the Arabian Peninsula. Not until the seventh century A.D., through the Islamic invasions, did Arabs come in any significant numbers into the land of Israel, which, in A.D. 135, the Romans had angrily renamed Syria-Palestina, after Israel’s chief enemy, the Philistines.
The so-called Palestinians of today are Arabs whose ancestors came from Arabia. They are a Semitic people, with no relationship either to the Canaanites or the Philistines, who were not Semites. It is a blatant lie that today’s “Palestinians” (who at the same time claim descent from Ishmael) are descended from the original inhabitants of the land of Canaan, which God promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their heirs.
David was first crowned king in Hebron and ruled there seven years before moving his throne to Jerusalem. This ancient city has no significance to Arabs/Muslims. Yet they have built a mosque at Machpelah, have forbidden access to Jews, and, at various times in history, have massacred Jews living there. Today Muslims are attempting to force out the few remaining Jews. They claim all of “Palestine” and state that Israelis are occupying land that belongs to them! And this fraud is the foundation for a so-called road map to peace!
President Bush, as a Christian, ought to tremble at God’s solemn warning that He will destroy all who divide His land (Joel 3:2). Yes, His land: “the land shall not be sold [or traded] for ever: for the land is mine” (Lev 25:23)! Quartet, take heed: you are defying the God of Israel and will not escape unpunished!
Those who make “peace” by taking land from Israel, which God gave her, will be destroyed: “[A]ll that burden themselves with it [Jerusalem] shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it” (Zec 12:3).
On September 13, 1993, under the triumphant gaze of a smiling President Clinton, Arafat signed, with Yitzak Rabin, the Oslo Accords on the White House lawn. The ink was scarcely dry when Arafat began publicly apologizing in Arabic to Muslims around the world. In fear for his life (remember Anwar Sadat’s murder by fellow Muslims for making “peace” with Israel), Arafat pleaded that he was only following the example of Muhammad and the Islamic law he established.
In A.D. 628, Muhammad led a few of his followers (recent converts to the new religion of Islam) from Medina back to Mecca, hoping to join thousands of pagan Arabs in the hajj. This annual pilgrimage to the Ka’aba (Islam, incredibly, claims it was built by Abraham and Ishmael!), with its elaborate ceremonies, had been practiced by pagan Arab tribes for centuries before Muhammad was born. He was turned back by the Meccans, but both parties signed a 10-year ceasefire known as the Treaty of Hubaybiya, as part of which Muhammad relinquished his claim to being “the prophet of Allah.”
This treaty allowed Muhammad the next year (A.D. 629) to lead a group of Muslims in the hajj. They joined thousands of “infidel” Arabs in the same pagan ceremonies that their ancestors had practiced for centuries (See TBC Q&A July '03 for the rituals).
In 630, Muhammad broke the ceasefire on a pretext and took over Mecca. At first, he allowed pagan Arabs to continue in the hajj, mingling with the new Muslims in the ancient rituals. Then he gave the pagans four months in which to convert to Islam or be killed. Thereafter, no non-Muslims were allowed into Mecca, as is true today.
So it is with Ramadan, which President Bush (like previous U.S. presidents) and other western leaders naively honor as a “holy Muslim holiday.” Beginning with the first sighting of the new moon in the ninth month of the Muslim lunar calendar, Ramadan was celebrated by pagan Arabs in honor of Allah, the moon god, for centuries before Islam. To the hajj and Ramadan, Muhammad added the horror of jihad and commanded Muslims to take over the world. That belief has cost millions of innocent lives and drives terrorism today.
Those promoting the Road Map to Peace are following a history of good intentions on the part of Israel and the West, which invariably have been betrayed by the Arabs/Muslims and have steadily made Israel’s position more untenable. American presidents, one after another, have cajoled Israel into compromise after compromise with Arab/Muslim leaders that could only have been uproarious jokes as far as the latter were concerned. Always, the good intentions of Israel and the West have led only to their further humiliation.
Pursuing their impossible peace initiatives, world leaders defy the God of Israel and of the Bible. As the “heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing [and] the kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed” (Ps 2:1-2), those with “ears to hear” (Deut 29:4; Eze 12:2; Mat 11:15; 13:9, etc.) detect the terrifying sound of laughter: “He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision” (Ps 2:4).
We are in the late stages of the awesome fulfillment of Bible prophecy, behind which lies the omnipotent hand of God himself: “I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem...” (Zec 12:2, 3).
That remarkable prophesy is being fulfilled today. Never before in history have all those surrounding Israel been united to destroy her. This significant development in history and Bible prophecy has come about through the rise of Islam.
Bush wants a “democratic, viable” Palestinian state living in peace with Israel, but no democracy exists, or can exist, in a Muslim society. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Bush is trying to create democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq. If that could happen, it would shake the entire Muslim world. Islam cannot survive in freedom. No wonder there is such fanatical opposition from Muslims worldwide, even for the capture of that sadistic mass torturer and murderer, Saddam Hussein. Muslims hold 80 percent of the world’s political prisoners.
America’s precipitous withdrawal from Lebanon 20 years ago, fleeing from known Syrian/Iranian-sponsored terrorists instead of pursuing them, encouraged the terrorism rampant today worldwide. Can Bush really, with terrorist partners, stand up against the evil of terrorism? When will he admit that it is endemic to Islam? Will the strategic (politically correct?) time ever come for telling the truth? It remains to be seen whether the U.S.can eliminate terrorism, when our State Department secretly opposes Israel and favors Arabs.
The Bible foretells a false peace, by which Antichrist will “destroy many” (Dan 8:24,25). Tragically, Israel will be deceived, tear down the security wall now being built, and drop its guard, opening the door to “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (Jer 30:7) and Armageddon (Eze 38:11,12,14,16). Two-thirds of all Jews worldwide will be killed (Zec 13:8,9). Those who survive will believe in Christ and be saved when He rescues them and they recognize the crucified, resurrected Lord as their Messiah and God (Zec 12:10; Mat 24:13; Rom 11:25,26).
We must not abandon Afghanistan or Iraq. I receive letters from missionaries there who say, “The minute the American and British troops pull out, we are dead!” It is time for Christians to pray as never before—and to do all they can to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to both Muslims and Jews. TBC
I tend to agree that a Premillennial Caucus would be low traffic. I’m usually opposed to caucuses philosophically anyway, unless they are meant for worship or devotion rather than discussion. Discussion ought to be wide open. It’s just that I see some open threads about a particular topic being targeted by those who don’t share their basic premise, which is unfair and annoying. I guess there’s no perfect solution. (I would suggest, though, that a Rapture Caucus ought to include post-tribs if it includes all of the other views. There’s little to distinguish that from pre-wrath anyway, IMHO. It comes down to some very fine distinctions.)
I’m usually opposed to caucuses philosophically anyway, unless they are meant for worship or devotion rather than discussion. Discussion ought to be wide open. It’s just that I see some open threads about a particular topic being targeted by those who don’t share their basic premise, which is unfair and annoying. I guess there’s no perfect solution.
Yeah, and what you've observed is exactly the point for having the Caucus, as you've noted. It's because in that open thread one can't get beyond the "point of agreement" (for a certain group that doesn't want to deal with it at that level) -- and finds itself "stuck there" at that level -- and essentially "getting nowhere" in their desires for discussion in the "further area" of that issue.
And thus, that's why a lot of people bail out of those discussions... :-) This would be to help people not bail out of them, and keep them engaged in what they want to talk about.
I would suggest, though, that a Rapture Caucus ought to include post-tribs if it includes all of the other views. There’s little to distinguish that from pre-wrath anyway, IMHO. It comes down to some very fine distinctions.
Yeah, I know it might seem that there is little distinction between the three other views (Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath) -- as compared to a Post-Trib -- but from what I can see there is a wide gulf between those first three and that final one.
One that all three hold in common is that the Rapture is a separate event from the Second Coming of Christ. The Post-Trib position is that it is part of the Second Coming, not distinguishable as a separate event.
Sure, all of them can be "called" the Rapture, but when you get down to describing it and what it means, it ends up being a wide gulf.
And then, the other thing is that all of the first three say that Christians are not subject to the Wrath of God, in being here on earth (and they each put that in different parts of the Tribulation, actually), but they still all maintain that. And the Post-Tribs say that Christians are subject to it, being here on earth (and some of those say that they would be supernaturally protected from it, though).
Furthermore, when it was looked up by the Religion Moderator in considering whether to include "Post-Tribs" in it (and you can see his comments on it), he noted that by his dictionary, Post-Tribs are not considered part of the Rapture group (and that stems from the fact that they see it all as part of the Second Coming event, while the others don't).
And I think that while a "Pre-Mil group may include the differences for all those groupings in the Rapture (by necessity, I would say), it's not a necessity for the Rapture Caucus to include the Post-Tribs in it, since they have never really considered the Rapture as a separate event from the Second Coming.
There is a whole lot made out of describing what the Bible says about those two events being described completely differently from each other -- to include the Post-Tribs in that kind of discussion (from what I've seen of the writings about the Rapture).
And also, if you are considering the Tribulation period and the issue of the Rapture being an event that cannot be foretold and is a surprise (not even the angels knowing) -- then that separates it from the Second coming, because one can actually count 1,260 days from the abomination of desolation and know exactly when the Second Coming will happen -- to the day. You can't do that with the Rapture though. And if one is saying that the Rapture is part of the Second Coming, then you've got the Rapture known exactly as to when it's happening because it's going to be that 1,260 days from the abomination of desolation.
Anyway, that's the rationale for having the Rapture Caucus as Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath.
Something over the last year or so seems to have set in motion.
Well, I would take a longer-range viewpoint of that and say that several major (i.e., "pivotal points") have happened in the last several hundred years. And I'm saying these things in context of Israel and it being God's timepiece for the "last of the end days".
I don't think there has been anything more, recently, than the continuous evolution of what these "major pivotal points" in recent history have already provided for God's Prophetic plan for Israel.
I guess a fair question could be....
*As Christians will we be a witness to the signing of Israel’s 7 yr Peace Treaty?*
In relation to the issue of the "Rapture" -- the answer would depend on which camp one is in -- in regards to this Rapture.
For Pre-Trib people -- the answer is that they will not see it, since they will not be here on earth.
For Mid-Trib people -- the answer is that they will see it, since they will be here until about 3-1/2 years into the Tribulation.
For Pre-Wrath people -- the answer is that they will see it, since they will be here for some period of time after the abomination of desolation and before the time that they consider the "Wrath of God" beginning.
As to what God says, I maintain that the Bible teaches that Christians will not be here on earth to see that happening.
My understanding is we will not be here when he is announced. (Saying he is GOD in the temple)
Ummmm..., you seem to be in conflict with an earlier answer you gave in Post #15 ...
You cannot be "this" (i.e., we will not be here when the abomination of desolation happens) and be "Post-Trib" -- at the same time ... :-)
Funny how such a momentous historic event has never gotten any attention at all.
The Temple would have to be rebuilt, right? Well there is serious talk of it now. News story from 5/26/09 Raad Salah: Netanyahu will Try to Rebuild the Jewish Temple http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131578
Although I think the Third Temple will be rebuilt, I don't think this is the "news article" that will substantiate that.
There's a lot of other information out there that substantiates the moves that are being made for this to be completed and that it is currently awaiting the right timing (obviously under God's control). And that timing is not yet, by any means.
What you're referring to here is a "news article" from some Muslim leader who is using this "self-created information" (no sourcing) to "drum up the masses" of Muslims in opposition" to Israel.
In other words, this guy is using this "assertion" of his, simply for a political ploy to benefit Muslims and nothing much more than that.
And as such, this is not the news article that will go very far in support of the idea that such a Temple is about to be rebuilt or that Netanyahu is the one who is about to do it ... LOL ...
Published: 05/26/09, 9:29 PM
by Gil Ronen
Sheikh Raad Salah, leader of the Northern Wing of the Islamic Movement in Israel, believes Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu will try to rebuild the Jewish Temple.
Speaking at a conference organized by website Islam Online in Doha, Qatar, Salah stated his belief that Netanyahu may try to build the Jewish Temple – which the Islamic preacher called “the false temple” – during his current term after allegedly failing to do so in his first term as Prime Minister in the late 1990s.
“I ask that those with the power to make the political decision hear me,” Salah exhorted his audience. “Netanyahu is about to build the false Temple, and when the Jews build the Temple they will do so upon the ruins of the Al-Aqsa [Mosque].”
Immediate danger
The danger to Jerusalem and the Al-Aqsa mosque is “tangible and immediate,” Salah said, echoing similar dramatic statements he has made over the years. “I warn, I ask for aid and I call out,” he said. “We should expect deadly surprises that could hurt Jerusalem in general and Al Aqsa in particular,” he said. “We live in years that will determine if Jerusalem survives and in Al Aqsa will remain standing,” he added.
Salah said that in an effort to prepare world opinion for the realization of its goals in Jerusalem, Israel sends tourists to the Al Aqsa mosque and tells them that it was built upon the ruins of the Jewish Temple.
The solution to “the threat against Jerusalem,” according to Salah, is a complete mobilization of the Arab world, including the religious imams, who need to act and “recruit the masses.” He asked Muslim scholars to pronounce edicts that will force “the Muslim nation and its leaders to confront their duty towards the problem of Jerusalem and Al Aqsa.”
“A thousand politicians can talk without changing a thing,” Salah said. ‘One religious sage can do what the politicians cannot carry out."
The Jewish Temple was first built by King Solomon (Shlomo) about 3,000 years ago. It served as the spiritual center of the Hebrew nation and as a place of national pilgrimage and sacrifice. Serviced by the priestly class (Kohanim) and Levites, the Temple contained the Seven-Branched Menorah and housed the golden Holy Ark within a room known as the Holy of Holies.
Coming soon: the Third Temple
The First Temple was razed by Babylonian conquerors, rebuilt by Jews by permission of a Persian emperor, defiled by Greeks and then re-consecrated by the Hasmoneans, and burnt down again by Romans. Jewish religion commands the Jews to rebuild the Temple as part of a Divine plan for the salvation of the Jewish people and the entire world, but Prime Minister Netanyahu, who is not considered observant, never has associated himself with efforts by Jews to pray on the Temple Mount. (IsraelNationalNews.com)
Yep!
OK, I’ll be sticking to open threads. I want to be able to consider all options within the general framework of premillennialism. Thanks for your help.
By consigning the world, which God so loved, and all of life other than a narrowly-defined "religious" zone to the other team, dispensationalism morphs easily into a sensationalism that makes its extreme elements unpaid cheerleaders for the other team.
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