[metmom]

Nice thing about traditions of men is that they are so easy to amend, or change, or weasel out of.

The position of the Catholic Church for centuries has been that salvation is through it and it alone. The double speak that they engaged in during Vatican II was only to try to appear to say that salvation is not just through the Catholic church all the while still adhering to that doctrine. Vatican II never really came out and said that salvation could be gained through other churches. They just tried to gloss over their true position.

Simply recognizing that there can be good found in other churches or religions does not equate to acknowledging that salvation is possible through them. The attitude of most of the die hard Catholics on this forum alone demonstrates that the teaching and thinking that salvation through the Catholic Church alone is not dead otherwise, there would be no comments about Protestants being heretics.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Excellent post. Unassailable.

[Running On Empty]

I don’t believe that it’s possible for anyone who is not in the Catholic Church to speak with clarity and any sort of inside knowledge about what the Church, and/or the Vatican II Council was attempting to achieve.

It’s easy to state that they were “trying to gloss over”, but no one can be certain of that opinion unless they can read the minds of those who drafted the documents. Without that kind of specific knowledge, the charge is without merit and becomes just something to say.

The Church always addresses the needs of the era. That’s a healthy sign. It’s not a matter of “so easy to amend” or “weasel out of”.

Addressing the era in which it is operating, the Church is demonstrating wisdom. Retaining that which is immutable truth is also her responsibility. I think all believing Christians know what those immnutable truths are. We Catholics have these truths in our Creed.

[Natural Law]

"The position of the Catholic Church for centuries has been that salvation is through it and it alone."

No it hasn't. At a point in history the Catholic Church was the voice of Christ on earth and spoke of salvation requiring Christ. You cannot point to anything other than your poor memory or ill formed opinions to substantiate your claims to the contrary. And you certainly cannot blame this misinformation on your Baltimore First Communion primer.

[Quix]

INDEED!

[Mad Dawg]

I think that you are misunderstanding or misconstruing what you quote. You present these various quotes triumphantly as though they proved your point. But they don't persuade me because I understand them in a manner different from that in which you understand them.

Two quick examples:

1. To say that somebody needs to be in the Church in addition to Baptism and faith to be saved is like saying I need to inhale in addition to breathing in. Those who believe and are baptized are members of the Church by definition.
   
2. To speak of "traditions of men" certainly suits the Protestant angle, but Catholics do not think that the word "tradition" cannot be used without the phrase "of men" attached to it. In our view the Bible itself is a tradition.