Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: kosta50; metmom
Paul explicitly calls only the Father God (cf 1 Cor 8:6, 11:3, etc.). The Christ and the Spirit are of God but they are never called God by Paul. Only the Father is. He also makes it very clear that Christ is not equal to the Father—"the head of Christ is God" says Paul.

Paul refers to Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the same terminology and status as do the writers of the Gospels. The only time that Jesus is mentioned specifically as God in the Gospels is John’s reporting of Thomas’ confession. The Holy Spirit is not specifically mentioned as God in the Gospels. The concept of the Trinity is a deduction from comparing scripture with scripture as did the Councils in formulating the Creeds.

According to Paul, Christ is our Lord but not equal to God; he is God's perefect creation, the first creature made in the image of God (Col 1:15),

John 1:1-3, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col. 1:15-19, “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell ;”

Paul saw Jesus the same way that the apostles did; God come in the flesh.

and for Paul the Spirit is the power of God (just as in Judaism), but never referred to as our Lord.

Paul refers to the Spirit as Lord in 2Cor. 3:17, "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." Nowhere else in the scriptures is the Spirit referred to as “Lord”. He is the “Holy Spirit”, Holy Ghost”, “Spirit”, Spirit of God”, Spirit of Christ”, “Spirit of Life” etc. but not referred to specifically as God or Lord.

This is clearly in contradistinction with the Nicean-Costantinopolean credal Trinity of the Church which states that the Spirit is the Lord and that he is the giver of life.

Paul (Rom 8:2) also says the Spirit gives life but only through Christ, obviously indicaitng that the Spirit alone cannot give life, but only acting on behalf of someone else.

Rom 8:10, “And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.”

Gal 6:8, “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”

Paul also unfailingly states that God raised Christ, not that Christ, being God, raised hismelf, which is a significant distinction of the suboridnaitonalist theology.

The only NT source which suggests that Christ didn't need asisstance is in John 2:19-21, which was incorprated into the Creed in contradisticntion to Paul: the Creed states "he rose on the third day" rather than "was raised..."

All of the scriptures refer to the resurrection as an action of God and a fulfillment of Ps. 16:10, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

See Peter in Acts 2:24-27, “Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. “

The entire New Testament teaches suboridinatonist Trinity. This is what the Church Fathers unfailingly taught until the 4th century.

That is not quite accurate. Many in the early church taught “subordinationism” up to the time of the Arian controversy and then the Councils took the matter up, but it was not the predominant Trinitarian concept. “Economic” subordination was the teaching of the church. God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not in any way inferior to the Father by nature or being. Both the Son and the Spirit are held to be co-equal and co-eternal with the Father because they are of the same being or substance as the Father. However, in carrying out the purposes and plan of God, they have voluntarily “subordinated” themselves to do the will of the father.

Phil. 2:5-11, “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

You will also notice that the Holy Ghost is sent and given, and that he does things through God or through Christ. There is also a distinction made between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

There is no distinction; Paul uses parallelism to explain the Holy Spirit is God.

Rom 8:9, “ But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. “

2,615 posted on 04/28/2010 10:27:29 AM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2479 | View Replies ]


To: blue-duncan; kosta50

Thank you for all that work.

Jesus Himself said He was the Father.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 14:8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”


2,620 posted on 04/28/2010 10:49:46 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2615 | View Replies ]

To: blue-duncan; metmom
“Economic” subordination was the teaching of the church. God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not in any way inferior to the Father by nature or being. Both the Son and the Spirit are held to be co-equal and co-eternal with the Father because they are of the same being or substance as the Father.

How can the Son be co-eternal when Paul says the Son is the firstborn of the creatures? And how can a creature be of the same substance as the Father?

In fact, the Son specifically states "the Father is greater than I." And Paul specifically states that "the head of Christ is God."

This suggests more than just economic subordination. Of course, John was trying to "bridge" all this for obvious reason, given the context under which this Gospel was written and interpolated.

2,640 posted on 04/28/2010 3:25:35 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2615 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson