BTW, have you ever posted a thread about protestant clergy child sexual abuse? Please provide a link, if you have. Why, it was just yesterday that I provided you with 24 links of posts/threads of mine from 2006 and 2007 alone, when you asked a similar question. To borrow your own words from that post, I "gave the lie to your statement".
The purpose of the removed posts indicting the presbyterian ministers' child sexual abuse was to let you and all lurkers know that contrary to protestant propaganda, adolescent/child sexual abuse is not a Catholic problem, it is a problem of all institutions. In fact, one of the worst abusers in the presbyterian church, who moved around from school to school, was a teacher at a school for deaf children. Public schools also have a very high rate of sex abusers of children, probably the highest. The propaganda, and the anti-Catholic bigots' agenda here, is to pretend that the Catholic Church has the only, the worst, and the highest rate of child abuse.
Certainly not the only organization - and I would challenge you to provide me and the lurkers with at least two dozen links to FR statements by Protestants (and at least one of those links must be a statement from yours truly), statements that must say categorically that no abuse has ever occurred in Protestant churches.
But as to non-Catholic charges of the abuse within the Catholic Church being "the worst, and the highest rate"? Those aren't statements of opinionated bias - those are statements that someone can actually prove (or disprove) with math. And yes, those are statements that I have made at times. You're completely free to do the math and disprove me on anything I've ever stated on Free Republic - but there's an old political adage that says "you can't beat something with nothing". I'll even help you out on this one, by providing you with a couple of my choice statements on the matter. I await your well-reasoned, mathmatically-supported responses to the following:
"As you have said (and I would agree), "There have been discussions, letters, articles, programs, announcement of programs, diocesan background checks, and so on." None of which rise to the level of a categorical, public, "no tolerance" condemnation of the practice. All true. But none rise to the level of a public anathema against sexual predators within the Catholic Church. We Reformers got one, so why not the pedophiles and other sexual deviants?"
-- Alex Murphy, April 2, 2008 The John Jay Study (see threads here, here, and outside coverage here) - commissioned by the U.S. Catholic Bishops' National Review Board itself - found that the number of accused Catholic priest abusers equaled four percent of the entire Catholic priest population. The John Jay study's findings are more than conclusive - they're exhaustive of the entire US population of Catholic priests. Surely you're not suggesting that the New York Times would be as more reliable source of information than the John Jay Study?
As I've said elsewhere, every study I've been shown of "Protestant" abuse (which include many of the websites your Google search links to) included volunteers and laypersons. The John Jay Study did not address these groups when they looked at Catholic parishes. If we exclude volunteers and laypersons from the "Protestant" studies (thereby creating a "pastor vs priest" apple-to-apple comparison), we arrive at a roughly 1% abuse rate for all "Protestant" pastors, or (in other words) at least a four times greater likelihood that any given Catholic priest will be a sexual predator, as compared to any given "Protestant" pastor. And that's according to the numbers and studies that Catholics keep telling me about.
Let me throw in one caveat to those comparisons. I found something interesting when I broke down the "Protestant" abuse cases by denomination / affiliation / theological leanings. The more free will / Arminian / synergistic the theology is, and the more independent the association is (as opposed to denominational affiliation), the higher the abuse statistic goes - and conversely, if you just look at the Reformed Protestant denominations, the number of "Protestant" abuse cases statistically drops off the chart by comparison. It's only the average of all "Protestant" pastors that is around 1%. Some independent churches have statistics that are far, far higher than the Catholic average of 4%.
-- Alex Murphy, April 2, 2008
"(S)hould denominational ratios be skewed by independent ratios?"....AFAIK, no one has ever attempted to quantify abuse statistics to show where abuse runs high (or low) among Protestant, Evangelical, and Independent church leadership. My attempts appear to be the first. And I would agree with you that we should compare apples to apples by keeping it ratios to ratios, and not raw numbers to raw numbers. See especially the thread Teachers Vs. Priests - Unequal Treatment In the Media? in which I say
While 25,000 hypothesized "accusations" is roughly six times the number of Catholic "accusations", 25,000 cases out of 1,600,000 teachers gives us a 1.3 to 1.56% ratio of sexually abusive teachers out of the entire public school system over a fifty year period - more than twice the volume of Protestant pastoral abuse, and less than half the volume of Catholic priest abuse. If we're after equal treatment in the media, I would expect there to be at least double the number of Catholic news stories as Public School stories, and four times as many Catholic news stories as Protestant news stories based on the percentage of perverts that exist with their respective organizations. IMO the disproportionate amount of coverage is the result of increased interest, when those organizations are caught protecting the abusers at the expense of the victims.
-- Alex Murphy, April 2, 2008 It is not sexual misconduct, rather it is sexual assault, that Catholic priests were accused of in the John Jay Study. The topic isn't "who's accused of sexual misconduct", it's "who's accused of committing a felony against a minor"....Should I consider the intentional conflation of "statutory rape" with "sexual misconduct" to be deflecting attention? Damn straight I do, skippy....Of the 38% of all Protestant clergy being accused of some level of inappropriate sexual contact, only 4.6% have engaged in actual sexual intercourse outside of marriage. And none of them of rape.
If the Catholic apologist were really comparing apples to apples, the real statistics would speak of Protestant clergy accused of criminal sexual contact with minors, or would adjust the John Jay study's four percent upwards to include inappropriate but otherwise legal sexual relations. But the Catholic apologist does no such thing. They start with John Jay's 4%, move on to Protestantism's 38%, and leave the reader thinking that 4% "statutory rape" is comparable to 38% "inappropriate relations". Sometimes you have to keep score, to tell when the other side is moving the goalposts on you.
-- Alex Murphy, September 29, 2009
"...the scandal was never really about the 4% abusers in their ranks. The real scandal was that 66% of bishops covered for the 4%, negatively affecting 95% of the dioceses in the United States - actions which cost the Catholic Church over three billion dollars paid in settlements and awards to the victims."
-- Alex Murphy, September 29, 2009
I don’t know HOW warranted your rant is.
Certainly there is a foul element in human nature to dog-pile on a victim or weak person or even merely an accused person.
And, it IS deplorable to judge, jury, sentence and execute someone (as though we were GOD ALMIGHTY) mentally, spiritually, verbally when very little, if any, solid evidence is in, much less considered fairly.
I don’t know of even the most rabid clique Roman Catholics, Prottys et al hereon who would cheer or condone the outrageously destructive assaultive actions of far too long a list of priests, ministers, teachers, troop leaders, and the like.
Horrifically sinful is dispicable to all of us who truly seek God and His ways.
And, too often, arrogance, self-righteousness, haughtiness, smugness, over-confidence, confidence in the flesh . . . all conspire to convince us unwarrantedly that WE would NEVER stoop to such exceedingly black and trashy sins. OUR sins are minor chalk scribblings on the side-walk, by comparison—we are prone to self-congratulate ourselves on.
I don’t think that’s God’s perspective.
Scripture teaches and certainly Holy Spirit is skillful to teach that with regard to virtually ANY SIN—given sufficiently ATTACHMENT DISORDERED childhood plus sufficiently contributive circumstances and pressures, virtually any of us could be guilty of virtually anything.
THAT is part of the lesson of the parable of the publican . . .
Luke 18:13
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
NONE of us live flawlessly as we ought.
ONLY the Blood of Jesus covers any of us sufficiently to face God for the briefest moment—much less for eternity.
Some of us deplore many of the excesses, heresies, outrages, traditions of Roman Catholocism et al, Pentecostalism etc, Calvinism etc. more or less to the max of our emotional perspectives.
There is a very great spiritual hazard, however, in looking down our long noses and long pointy fingers at the OUT-GROUP over THERE, and the worst examples in it.
God almost began this human scene with ONE OUT-GROUP—MANKIND.
ONLY THE BLOOD OF JESUS AFFORDS ANY OF US THE REMOTEST CHANCE TO BE IN HIS IN-GROUP.
And our propensities to judge, be bitter, resentful and unforgiving toward/of THOSE OUT-GROUP IDIOTS over THERE is very hazardous to our spiritual health, if not our eternal destination.
Some in our respective camps seem to gleefully, eagerly look for chances to black wash the folks in and perspectives of the other camp(s).
THAT’s NOT heeding the truths and wisdom of Luke 18:13. That’s not obeying the Lord in HIS PRAYER to, “Father, forgive us OUR SINS, AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST US.”
Certainly there are legitimate reasons for us to be outraged at what we perceive to be horrific heresies, blasphemies, perverse assaultive sins.
SOMETIMES, at least, there are MORE reasons for us to be cirucmspect, sobered, reflective . . . and to cry, LORD, BE MERCIFUL TO ME, A SINNER.
There are spiritual principles involved.
1. We reap what we sow, more or less inexorably—certainly apart from God’s Grace, Mercy, and forgiveness . . . and usually, to some degree even with such ministrations of His Love.
2. And, it doesn’t matter how lily white and necessary WE THINK OUR rants, perspectives, saintliness, preaching, etc. is. God looks on the heart.
3. And Judging has a particularly devastating boomerang effect in the spiritual realm and in the tangible realm. Unfitting, carnal, fleshy, critical, self-righteous judgment ALWAYS returns to bite us in our sitter or other embarrassing parts—such as our noses in the air, our long fingers or our out-thrust jaws.
4. God has a way of pulling the feathers out of the nest and the blinders off our self-delusion off to the point that we become actively in our flesh that which we have so haughtily and so self-righteously judged others for. AND NO ONE IS IMMUNE.
These principles, truths, spiritual laws ARE OPERANT whether we want to admit it, realize it and live accordingly, or not.
We can learn so earlier and easier or the opposite.
We WILL LEARN SO—now or at the point of our graduation from this life.
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I don’t think I have a solution to the seemingly interminable hashing and rehashing of the sins of omissions, comissions, emissions the Pope, priests, ministers, youth pastors, teachers et al.
I have a caution.
Unwarranted, unfitting, unnecessarily prolonged—haughty, self=righteous, pointy-fingered outrage
is EXTREMELY SPIRITUALLY HAZARDOUS to the authors and to those who read such and cheer unfittingly in their hearts and minds.
There is in the nature of human psychology and IN-GROUP/OUT-GROUP DYNAMICS to gleefully, eagerly
run screaming to DADDY . . .
SEE, DADDY, HE KICKED OVER MY SANDCASTLE, HE’S BEEN BURNING ANTS AGAIN! SLAP HIM DADDY, SLAP HIM!
Yeah, Daddy probably needs called on some things and earlier than later. And, proper discipline needs to be applied.
YEAH, ALL SYSTEMS and ALL institutions have horrific tendencies to wrap themselfs in robes of self-righteousness and protect the institution at all costs, as though the institution were GOD ALMIGHTY ITSELF. And !!!!TRADITION!!!! bound institutions that have been at it a long time are the worst about that.
Nevertheless we are wise to use our mirrors exhaustively—and to ask Holy Spirit for HIS SEARCH LIGHT ON OUR deceitfully wicked hearts before playing Don Quixote with the windmills.
SOME Roman Catholics et al will defend their INSTITUTION as though they were defending GOD HIMESLF because they seem incapable of construing a great deal of difference between them. What else is new.
SOME Calvinists will defend that perspective fiercely at the drop of a hat because they construe that to be GOD BREATHED TRUTH indivisible from The Gospel. What else is new.
SOME Pentecostals will defend speaking in tongues fiercely in a flash because they construe that to be a GOD-GIVEN DIALOGUE-WITH-GOD-GIFT, inheritance for the church age. What else is new.
Some of us hereon love energetic, emotional, intense exchanges. It’s our personalities, our background, our training, our fascination, our exercise, our fun—perhaps for some—an obsession. What else is new.
And, I realize there’s ever new crops of lurkers that HAVE A RIGHT TO/ MUST BE ‘indoctrinated with the ‘TRULY TRUEST TRUTH OF OUR UNIQUE PERSPECTIVES.’ What else is new.
Nevertheless, the shrill attacks and shrill counter attacks surrounding the perverse sexual hideousness is more than a LOT wearisome.
Is there any hope that we could soon get to the point where we could lay it aside as a horse soundly beat to smithereens—to powder and blown to the four winds?
I deplore spiritual and behavioral hideousness within and without as much as the next Christian.
And, I’ll probably be redundant again again about this or that pet topic more than a few times before I graduate from this life.
However, there really ARE CHRISTIANS WHO LOVE JESUS on all sides of these issues. We COULD spend a BIT MORE TIME acting and sounding like it.
