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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
Mark you crack me up. XD
Yeah, the Catholic church is filled with *if’s*
Yes, LOL! I noticed that the OPC Q & A sure did try to talk out of both sides of it’s mouth! I read a bunch of the questions and answers, and was left with a bad impressions.
For instance, will the Jews of the Holocaust go to heaven? Well, they’re God’s chose people, so they’re elect, but God decides who is elect and who isn’t, so maybe they won’t.
LOL!
Same thing with infants that die. If they’re elect, they’ll go to heaven. But surely they must be, but they might not be.
Doesn’t seem to actually address the question, does it? And a lot of times, the person writing the answer says, “Be sure to ask your minister.” I thought the BIBLE was the authority!
The only one capable of making us worthy of heaven is Jesus Himself, the one who died for us in our place and to whom we go for forgiveness.
What makes you think that these statements are incompatible?
Besides, God is very clear in the Bible that we are not to be trying to contact the dead.
Aside from the fact that the Apostles prayed to Mary, revered her and wrote icons to her, we have :
Revelation 8: 3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
I've heard that convoluted rationalization for directly disobeying commands of God before. That's nothing new.
BTW, the link I posted for you is written my the head of the Macomb County Christian Homeschoolers and a wonderful, Evangelical Christian. She homeschools and fosters and is my hero.
Give it a shot, just for information sake. She explains misunderstanding on both sides.
Hugs!
“Mary has no more power to do anything to help someone get into heaven than anyone else on the planet.”
Can you pray for me?
Speaking of convoluted rationalizations, what was your position on St. Paul and the trinity? Please remind me....
Who says I’m good? LOL! But, it’s true, ol’ RA and I are very close....
Accounts of atrocities committed against Waldensians in Italy are widely available. Children were pitched off of cliffs; that fact is not under controversy. It was immortalized in poem and song in England, and even stirred Cromwell into attempts to extract vengeance. It was truly notorious during the era in which it occurred. I can refer you to the head of the Waldensian Church here in America if you'd like. He's just up the road in Valdese, NC.
Seeing as how the French Waldensians in Lyon, known as "The Poor of Lyon," had been wiped out by the Catholic Church and the survivors fled to Italy themselves, including Peter Vaud/de Vaux/Valdez/Waldes/Waldo, I see little reason to accord such a statement much credence. The Italian Waldenses, "The Poor of Lombard," were the only Waldensians left, and they themselves were decimated over two centuries after the death of their founder, in the attack that I described. They came here to North Carolina to find some peace and to worship unmolested, just a little over a century ago.
The Waldenses were characterized from their earliest beginnings by lay preaching, voluntary poverty and strict adherence to the Bible. Peter Waldo commissioned a cleric from Lyons around 1180 to translate the Bible, or parts of it, into the vernacular, the Arpitan (Franco-Provençal) language.
In 1179, Waldo and one of his disciples went to Rome. They were welcomed by Pope Alexander III, and by the Roman Curia. They had to explain their faith before a panel of three clergymen, including items which were then debated within the Church, such as the universal priesthood, the gospel in the vulgar tongue, and the issue of self-imposed poverty. The results of the meeting were inconclusive, and Waldo’s and his followers’ ideas, initially regarded with suspicion, were condemned at the Third Lateran Council in the same year, though the leaders of the movement had not been yet excommunicated.
The persecution of the Waldenses was one of the more shameful episodes in Catholic history. There was no reason for this. They'd been permitted to live in peace by the Duke of Savoy for centuries, and then came what had every earmark of a pogrom against them.
Only two people ever mentioned in the Bible never died, Enoch (in Genesis) and Elijah, who was taken up in a chariot of fire.
Every one else has died, their mortal bodies have ceased functioning on this planet and have returned to the dust from which they came.
Everyone who ever existed still continues to exist somewhere, either in heaven or in hell. By the Catholic Church rationalization, we could also pray to those in hell since they are still alive as well.
However, Scripture is clear that we are not to be going about contacting those who have died in this mortal life. They are considered dead to us.
Besides, there are enough people here on this planet to pray for each other, if people were praying as they ought. How is going to dead people going to gain you something that living people praying for you can’t accomplish?
Applause. Tremendous, standing applause. Now what keys does Peter have?
Matthew 16: 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Peter is the steward of the Church of Jesus Christ; the Church of Salvation, not of condemnation. I think that we might be having a 'moment' here. I'd hug you right now. This is fantastic.
Mary is not dead.
A lot of people don’t get some of what I post. Thanks. I try to leave the occasional nugget in for folks to find.
So you reject the Communion of Saints? Have you not read 2 Maccabees, Chapter 12, verses 41 - 45?
The mantra of the Bible Believers (tm) is Sola Scriptura, which is on the packaging. The reality is that without the Magisterium as the guide, each person eats a great heaping, steaming bowl of YOPIOS every day, rolls the dice and comes up with whatever it is that they come up that day.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."That seems so clear. Really, really clear. And for 20 centuries almost all of Christendom understood those clear words. Actually, the vast majority still do. They are called Catholic or Universal. Thanks for posting the Truth.
I’ll just bet that 2 Maccabees is not in her Bobble.
She has a Booble? Hmmmm......
Do you have a recommended history of the Waldensians?
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