Nifonging the Catholic Church

me ^ | April 18, 2010 | vanity

[MarkBsnr]

Nicea may take credit for defining and using the word “trinity” but that concept - because it has ALWAYS been the nature of the only, true God - exists in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. YOPIOS notwithstanding!

Now we hit on the problem - the understanding of God by human beings. The OT does not have any sort of personages of God - the Jews never conceived of their Messiah as their deity. It was God - Yahweh, Jehovah - but as a single entity with a single perception by men.

The NT times introduced Jesus as Messiah, and Son of God in a subordinationalist fashion. Nicea confirmed the Trinity to men. I agree that God is God and God is I AM. The problem is the perception of men.

[metmom]

Naturally.

[boatbums]

No Trinitarian verses in Paul, I’m afraid.

Well...let's just ignore or reinterpret these as well:

1Cor 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen.

[boatbums]

Paul never mentions the Virgin Birth; he may have been unaware of it, or else he never wrote about it in any letters kept by the Church.

I seriously doubt that! Paul, being a Pharisee, probably memorized the entire book of Isaiah as young child! Including the verse:

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Paul was QUITE aware of the messianic prophecy of the virgin birth and he was CONVINCED that Jesus was the Messiah. Immanuel - God with us.

[count-your-change]

I don't know why there should be a misunderstanding of who was the rock upon whom the church was built. Jesus understood that he was the cornerstone and the apostles and disciples were building stones and they understood that.

All were brothers and when James and John seek a special position Jesus says it's not his decision so how would Peter be appointed over all the other disciples? A first among equals?

[HarleyD]

The Church does not Judge them, neither does it know. The Church declares saints based upon the criteria that it believes that are attributed to them.

If they declare them saints then they are judging them based upon their criteria.

[MarkBsnr]

2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen.

You have this one verse, in the context of 1 Corinthians 24. Let's examine what it actually says. My NAB says:

13 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.

Close enough. What does it actually say? Does it say that the Holy Spirit is God? Does it further say that the Holy Spirit is coequal, coeternal and coexisting in the Trinity? No, and you will not find that in Paul. As for Jesus, Paul hints occasionally at His Divinity, but never as coequal, coeternal, and coexisting in the Trinity. Paul is a subordinationalist who writes somewhere between Jesus as a super David and a subordinate God. That is not a condemnation of him, but it is what he wrote.

[MarkBsnr]

Paul never mentions the Virgin Birth; he may have been unaware of it, or else he never wrote about it in any letters kept by the Church.

I seriously doubt that! Paul, being a Pharisee, probably memorized the entire book of Isaiah as young child! Including the verse:

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Paul was QUITE aware of the messianic prophecy of the virgin birth and he was CONVINCED that Jesus was the Messiah. Immanuel - God with us.

Paul should have, could have, would have, sure. But none of his letters indicate it. If you are going to hang your hat on sola scriptura, then this peg is missing.

[Natural Law]

"How cute...you spelled T U L I P...not the question that was asked, though."

The Five Sola's are all distortions of the Gospel.

[MarkBsnr]

The Church does not Judge them, neither does it know. The Church declares saints based upon the criteria that it believes that are attributed to them.

If they declare them saints then they are judging them based upon their criteria.

The evaluation of the Church is not the Judgement of Christ, nor is it intended to pass for it. It is the holding up in esteem those who would live holy lives in order to show good examples for other men.

[Forest Keeper]

It has been invented and sold for many years.

Ah, so it has. Thanks very much. I think it's hilarious that they could actually get a trademark for "The Empty Tomb". :)

[HarleyD]

Are you saying that there may be a time the Church would declare a person a saint and Christ would condemned them to hell?

[count-your-change]

Actually it was Jesus’ objections.

[metmom]

My question to you was in regards to what Scripture it was that was twisted.

NL: "As opposed to elevating other traditions of men like Luther and Calvin who twisted, redacted, and revised the plain, basic meaning of scripture?"

I asked this: "What tradition and what Scripture? Chapter and verse and misinterpretation, please. "

Your response of: "I am not going to answer "Chapter and Verse" because I do not accept the concept of Sola Scriptura or that the bible contains 100% of the revealed Word. You will not accept anything else. We therefore cannot engage in any meaningful dialog."

...is totally irrelevant to what I asked and what you commented on in the first place.

The issue wasn't about whether the Bible contained the entire revealed word of God or not, the issue was Luther and Calvin were twisting , redacting, and revising the plain, basic meaning of scripture. I simply asked which Scripture it was that they twisted, redacted, and revised and you responded with a strawman, as usual.

Do you think that you could find it in you to actually answer the question put to you for a change?

[MarkBsnr]

Are you saying that there may be a time the Church would declare a person a saint and Christ would condemned them to hell?

I would hope that the Church would not make such as mistake given its rather lengthy and exhaustive investigations into the individual's life, but I suppose that it could be possible. After all, the Church is answerable to God, not vice versa. God Judges the individuals of the Church, one by one, as He Judges all men.

[boatbums]

Peter himself considers Christ the Rock on which the church is built.

Amen!

[metmom]

So give us an example of a Scripture, any Scripture, which Luther and Calvin twisted, redacted, and revised the plain, basic meaning of.

[MarkBsnr]

The Church’s divisions of deacon, priest and bishop are based upon the NT Church hierarchy. Not sure of your understanding of the objections of Jesus.

[Natural Law]

"Paul, being a Pharisee"

Tell us how Paul could have been both a Pharisee AND a tax collector and persecutor of Christians? That was the turf of the Sadducee's.

[metmom]

After all, the Church is answerable to God, not vice versa. God Judges the individuals of the Church, one by one, as He Judges all men.

Then how does that work when the Church excommunicates someone? The church teaches that anyone outside the church is going to hell. Sounds to me like they dictate who gets saved and who doesn't.