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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
Its blasphemy to ascribe Luther's three antisemitic books to the Holy Spirit.
I didn't ascribe his anti-semitic books to the Holy Spirit, those likely came from his Catholic training. I was discussing God's use of ML to reform His Church.
You disparaged the information I provided, and then turned right around and agreed with it in a backhanded way. Nothing you’ve posted negates my statement, that anti-Semitism didn’t just fall out of the sky when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg. He learned it, when he was Catholic.
You imply that those who were anti-Semite were somehow not Catholic; if so, there was an awful lot of “not Catholic” going around, and the “are too Catholics” still killed a bunch of Jews, oftentimes for very spurious reasons or even for financial gain, as even one of your popes pointed out in the information I provided, that you disparage.
I suppose Martin Luther should have stayed in that dirty vessel of a church himself and not attempted to reform some very obvious abuses, leaving the Holy Spirit to inspire someone less tainted with very old church biases. The Catholic Church held no special esteem for Jews, other than that they killed Jesus.
The church was (and is) the new Israel, according to itself. That’s Replacement Theology, the same errant doctrine to which certain addlepated Catholics want to attribute the putative anti-Semitism of, hold onto your tinfoil miter ... Presbyterians, lol. Yes, those Presbyterian passion plays and pogroms and inquisitions are quite well known and just horrid. /s
So was I.
My point wasn't that antisemitism was absent within all of Europe, protestant and Catholic alike. It was an ugly stain on mankind. My point was that there was noting just, special, or holy about Luther that would justify the claims of divine authority to revise or reject Scripture. He was just another flawed "holy" man who exploited the faithful for self advancement and not much different than an early day Jimmy Swaggart.
John Calvin was the first to articulate that principal and put it into practice in Geneva.
The United States was patterned after the government of Geneva with its separation of church and state, with its built-in system of checks and balances and its tri-part government, each keeping the other honest.
Church and state are to be separate, with the church guiding the people's consciences and the state protecting the rights of the church to freely exist.
Pick up a history book and read it sometime.
But I look forward to any opportunity to educating Roman Catholics on the truth...
Through Calvin's work Geneva became an asylum for the persecuted, and a training school for the Reformed Faith. Refugees from all the countries of Europe fled to this retreat, and from it they carried back with them the clearly taught principles of the Reformation. It thus acted as a center emanating spiritual power and educational forces which guided and molded the Reformation in the surrounding countries. Says Bancroft, "More truly benevolent to the human race than Solon, more self-denying than Lycurgus, the genius of Calvin infused enduring elements into the institutions of Geneva and made it for the modern world the impregnable fortress of popular liberty, the fertile seed-plot of democracy."11 Witness as to the effectiveness of the influences which emanated from Geneva is found in one of the letters of the Roman Catholic Francis de Sales to the duke of Savoy, urging the suppression of Geneva as the capital of what the Romish Church calls heresy. "All the heretics," said he, "respect Geneva as the asylum of their religion.... There is not a city in Europe which offers more facilities for the encouragement of heresy, for it is the gate of France, of Italy, and of Germany, so that one finds there people of all nations — Italians, French, Germans, Poles, Spaniards, English, and of countries still more remote. Besides, every one knows the great number of ministers bred there. Last year it furnished twenty to France. Even England obtains ministers from Geneva. What shall I say of its magnificent printing establishments, by means of which the city floods the world with its wicked books, and even goes the length of distributing them at the public expense? ....All the enterprises undertaken against the Holy See and the Catholic princes have their beginnings at Geneva. No city in Europe receives more apostates of all grades, secular and regular. From thence I conclude that Geneva being destroyed would naturally lead to the dissipation of heresy."12 Another testimony is that of one of the most bitter foes of Protestantism, Philip II of Spain. He wrote to the king of France: "This city is the source of all mischief for France, the most formidable enemy of Rome. At any time, I am ready to assist with all the power of my realm in its overthrow." And when the Duke of Alva was expected to pass near Geneva with his army, Pope Pius V asked him to turn aside and "destroy that nest of devils and apostates." The famous academy of Geneva was opened in 1558. With Calvin there were associated ten able and experienced professors who gave instruction in grammar, logic, mathematics, physics, music, and the ancient languages. The school was remarkably successful. During the first year more than nine hundred students, mostly refugees from the various European countries, were enrolled, and almost as many more attended his theological lectures preparing themselves to be evangelists and teachers in their native countries and to establish churches after the model which they had seen in Geneva. For more than two hundred years it remained the principal school of Reformed Theology and literary culture. Calvin was the first of the Reformers to demand complete separation between Church and State, and thus he advanced another principle which has been of inestimable value. The German Reformation was decided by the will of the princes; the Swiss Reformation, by the will of the people; although in each case there was a sympathy between the rulers and the majority of the population. The Swiss Reformers, however, living in the republic at Geneva, developed a free Church in a free State, while Luther and Melanchthon, with their native reverence for monarchial institutions and the German Empire, taught passive obedience in politics and brought the Church under bondage to the civil authority. Calvin died in the year 1564, at the early age of fifty-five. Beza, his close friend and successor, describes his death as having come quietly as sleep, and then adds: "Thus withdrew into heaven, at the same time with the setting sun, that most brilliant luminary, which was the lamp of the Church. On the following night and day there was intense grief and lamentation in the whole city; for the Republic had lost its wisest citizen, the Church its faithful shepherd, and the Academy an incomparable teacher." In a comparatively recent book Professor Harkness has written: "Calvin lived, and died, a poor man. His house was scantily furnished, and he dressed plainly. He gave freely to those in need, but he spent little upon himself. The Council at one time gave him an overcoat as an expression of their esteem, and as a needed protection against the winter's cold. This he accepted gratefully, but on other occasions he refused proffered financial assistance and declined to accept anything in addition to his modest salary. During his last illness the Council wished to pay for the medicines used but Calvin declined the gift, saying that he felt scruples about receiving even his ordinary salary when he could not serve. When he died, he left a spiritual inheritance of unestimated value and a material estate of from fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars."13 Schaff describes Calvin as "one of those characters that command respect and admiration rather than affection, and forbid familiar approach, but gain upon closer acquaintance. The better he is known, the more he is admired and esteemed." And concerning his death Schaff says: "Calvin had expressly forbidden all pomp at his funeral and the erection of any monument over his grave. He wished to be buried, like Moses, out of reach of idolatry. This was consistent, with his theology, which humbles man and exalts God."14 Even the spot of his grave in the cemetery at Geneva is unknown. A plain stone, with the initials "J. C.," is pointed out to strangers as marking his resting-place, but it is not known on what authority. He himself requested that no monument should mark his grave. His real monument, however, says S. L. Morris, is "every republican government on earth, the public school system of all nations, and 'The Reformed Churches throughout the world holding the Presbyterian System.'" Calvin's influence in Geneva gives us a fair sample of the transforming power of his system. "The Genevese," says the eminent church historian, Philip Schaff, "were a light-hearted, joyous people, fond of public amusements, dancing, singing, masquerades, and revelries. Recklessness, gambling, drunkenness, adultery, blasphemy, and all sorts of vice abounded. Prostitution was sanctioned by the authority of the State, and superintended by a woman called the Reine de bordel. The people were ignorant. The priest had taken no pains to instruct them, and had set them a bad example." From a study of contemporary history we find that shortly before Calvin went to Geneva the monks and even the bishop were guilty of crimes which today are punishable with the death penalty. The result of Calvin's work in Geneva was that the city became more famed for the quiet, orderly lives of its citizens than it had previously been for their wickedness. John Knox, like thousands of others who came to sit as admiring students at Calvin's feet, found there what he termed "the most perfect school of Christ that ever was on the earth since the days of the Apostles."
This is the same sleight of hand that turned diakonos into a title, Deacon, episkopos into Bishop, etc.
Amen!
Such is the power of the "word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left."
No thx, Ive seen many of your posts displayed as false witness,.
The Catholic Church in Luther’s time was highly corrupt and he attempted to reform it. Whether one agrees with his methods or not, whether one agrees with his theology or not, and whether one deems him “worthy” or not, that fact remains.
The omnipresent anti-Semitism of the time and place is not an issue that is beneficial for you as a Catholic to expound upon. There was going on several centuries worth of church precedent in that regard from which Luther learned, and it was ongoing prior to the time of his birth up to the point at which he broke with the church, and even afterwards.
That is what I am hoping to impart to you, here. Calling him an anti-Semite is the pot calling the kettle black. Maybe you should step back from that and revert to the trusty old “heretic,” since it’s been such a versatile and profitable calumny in the past.
Don’t take my word for anything. Read the Bible.
Read it several times a week. I started a promise to myself to read it from start to finish. I am stuck in the "begats".
lol. Any pot/port in a storm.
Don't forget these are the same apologists who somehow took one eschatological world view which Roman Catholics and Presbyterians share in common and labeled it "anti-semitic."
lol.
Where's the discernment?
"Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?" -- Job 6:30
So the typical AP AS Catholic bigot.
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." -- 1 Peter 1:24-25"For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
There are genealogical charts with timelines floating around the web, so if you need a sort of "Cliffsnotes" version to get past that hurdle, there's no reason to let it stop you. Understanding the significance of each tribe is helpful as well, and there are credible synopses of this available, too.
There really are only two types of people in this world: those who live by law and those who live by grace. For those Protestants that believe we share a battle with Romanists in some sort of social conservative movement may Judith's testimony convict them of which gospel they follow. Paul, of course, experienced these charges when he lived on earth and recognized the consequences of the gospel:
To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.Thanks again, Judith!
For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
***The Catholic Church needs to PROVE it has changed before it can earn back the trust it has lost.***
Yup.
And FRoman Catholics need to change their whole victim mentality in regards to this entire scandal, which Judy perpetuated by posting this drivel.
The fact is that the Roman Catholic church fueled this horrid sin. The casual lurker on FR however would think that somehow the Protestant church is responsible for the fact that Roman Catholic priests molest children.
There really are only two types of people in this world: those who live by law and those who live by grace. For those Protestants that believe we share a battle with Romanists in some sort of social conservative movement may Judith's testimony convict them of which gospel they follow. Paul, of course, experienced these charges when he lived on earth and recognized the consequences of the gospel:
To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.
lol. Amen.
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." -- John 3:33-34"He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Oops. I forgot John is disparaged, too. 8~(
***Oops. I forgot John is disparaged, too. 8~(***
Yup. Tradition does nothing but undermine the Holy Spirit.
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