Death by a thousand compliments. Too kind...literally.
First, the post does not turn on John 6:44. The post turns on several passages that speak to predestination, and the companion foreknowledge. But, let us focus on this claim that John 12:32 addresses the same thing that Jesus was speaking of in John 6.
Notice, in John 6:44 Jesus specifically promises that the "drawn" (whoever that may be) will be raised up on the last day. Now, unless you are a universalist (some Catholics I have met are), Jesus was discriminating between those he would absolutely rescue, if they were drawn, and everyone else. If you are correct that all individuals are drawn, then all individuals will be resurrected. Talk about a "hard" predestination...this is hard universalism, a bigger heresy than indulgences.
But, the argument Jesus is making continues in John 6:65 as He was describing some individuals who believed and some that didn't believe and would betray Him. And, He knew who was who. How could he know ahead of the choice? Because, as He said, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father." There is no question He is specifically calling attention to THE reason the betrayer did not believe: It had not been given to him, "For this reason..."
Identifying Judas as not being given something others were given was not a "guess" or "probability". Notice, it was not ultimately because Judas didn't believe that he came to betray Jesus. It was because he was not "given" faith to apprehend, "This is the Messiah." He betrayed because he didn't believe and didn't believe because it was not given him. Judas did exactly what Jesus said He would do and could not have done otherwise. This is abundantly clear from the text.
Your entire point rests on the word "all" in John 12, meaning "every individual". However, the word in John 6:44 is "oudeis", "no one" or "not one" individually while the word in John 12:32 is "pantas", or simply "all" (accusative, plural, masculine) without reference to whether it means all individuals, all men, all mankind, all nations or whatever. Please don't call in your buddy with a fourth grade Greek education, I won't address his gross mistatements and inaccuracies.
We argue that since we now know from John 6:65 that Jesus could not be speaking of "every individual" (unless you believe Judas was the only guy in history to be left out), then He must be addressing "all nationalities" whether Dutch or Yurok Indian or Jewish. And that has, without question, occurred. He has drawn the world to Himself...just NOT every individual man in the world.
Beware of demanding words mean the same thing everywhere, without context. This comes from a deficient hermenuetic. "I woke up this morning, got up and dressed up. I ran up to the store and picked up some groceriecs. The clerk added the cost up and when I got home, I cooked up some breakfast. I ate it all up." Define "up". Words are controlled by the context and the arguments occurring in proximity.
But, you have ignored the wider argument of my post. Does God know what will happen tomorrow or not? If He does, and that knowledge is inerrant, absolute and fixed, then what could happen other than what He already knows? Could another outcome occur? If not, then everything is simply tracking along a predetermined path, including men's destinies. Including the moment of Jesus death (Acts 2:23). In truth, God's foreknowledge is just a result of God's massive control over the universe. Are we to "choose" Him...certainly, but is that choice unaffected, unguided, unknown by God until we choose? If so, then Paul's letter to the Romans is wrong "For whom He foreknew, He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son...And whom He predestined, these He also called, and whom He called He also justified, and whom He justified these He also glorified." The golden chain.
But, if God's foreknowledge is not perfect (at best a good guess) then the future is unfolding for God just as it is for you and I. He has no idea what the stock market will do today, since it is comprised of billions of individual "free will" choices. Since He doesn't affect (or rather "effect") them, then He sits and waits until the close. Is this really the God described in the Bible? I submit that if one holds to a God waiting for his creatures to act, that man worships a caraciture of a really smart human. Blasphemy.
Rather, the Scripture indicates His knowledge is perfect because He manages to accomplish all that occurs, Is. 45:6, 7, "That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no other besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity (literally "evil"); I am the Lord who does all these." I can find dozens of passages like this. Sorry Mark...He wins.
Identifying Judas as not being given something others were given was not a "guess" or "probability". Notice, it was not ultimately because Judas didn't believe that he came to betray Jesus. It was because he was not "given" faith to apprehend, "This is the Messiah." He betrayed because he didn't believe and didn't believe because it was not given him. Judas did exactly what Jesus said He would do and could not have done otherwise. This is abundantly clear from the text.
AMEN!
Your entire post is rock-solid. I'm putting your Scriptural logic on my homepage.
Rather, the Scripture indicates His knowledge is perfect because He manages to accomplish all that occurs, Is. 45:6, 7, "That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no other besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity (literally "evil"); I am the Lord who does all these." I can find dozens of passages like this. Sorry Mark...He wins.
AMEN! They have no argument to challenge your post. At heart, RCs are inconsistent universalists. Period.
Negative. You have posted an outstanding post.
First, the post does not turn on John 6:44. The post turns on several passages that speak to predestination, and the companion foreknowledge. But, let us focus on this claim that John 12:32 addresses the same thing that Jesus was speaking of in John 6. Notice, in John 6:44 Jesus specifically promises that the "drawn" (whoever that may be) will be raised up on the last day.
Yes, that is what it says.
Now, unless you are a universalist (some Catholics I have met are), Jesus was discriminating between those he would absolutely rescue, if they were drawn, and everyone else.
Negative. Jesus said that he would draw all men. Drawing is not an absolute rescue, just as Scripture as written is inspired, and not dictated.
If you are correct that all individuals are drawn, then all individuals will be resurrected. Talk about a "hard" predestination...this is hard universalism, a bigger heresy than indulgences.
Negative again. Drawing is not salvation.
Your entire point rests on the word "all" in John 12, meaning "every individual". However, the word in John 6:44 is "oudeis", "no one" or "not one" individually while the word in John 12:32 is "pantas", or simply "all" (accusative, plural, masculine) without reference to whether it means all individuals, all men, all mankind, all nations or whatever. Please don't call in your buddy with a fourth grade Greek education, I won't address his gross mistatements and inaccuracies.
The trouble is that my friend knows more Greek and Church Slavonic than I am ever likely to know, and knows it well. However, all still means all.
Even Paul hops onto the all means all bandwagon.
Titus 2: 11 2 For the grace of God has appeared, saving all 12 and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age, 13 as we await the blessed hope, the appearance 3 of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to deliver us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good.
We argue that since we now know from John 6:65 that Jesus could not be speaking of "every individual" (unless you believe Judas was the only guy in history to be left out), then He must be addressing "all nationalities" whether Dutch or Yurok Indian or Jewish. And that has, without question, occurred. He has drawn the world to Himself...just NOT every individual man in the world.
Umm, how do you know that Judas was left out? How do you know the final Judgement of Judas?
But, if God's foreknowledge is not perfect (at best a good guess) then the future is unfolding for God just as it is for you and I. He has no idea what the stock market will do today, since it is comprised of billions of individual "free will" choices. Since He doesn't affect (or rather "effect") them, then He sits and waits until the close. Is this really the God described in the Bible? I submit that if one holds to a God waiting for his creatures to act, that man worships a caraciture of a really smart human. Blasphemy.
God's foreknowledge is perfect, since He has already experienced all of time. Alpha and Omega. God does not wait for His creatures to act.
Rather, the Scripture indicates His knowledge is perfect because He manages to accomplish all that occurs, Is. 45:6, 7, "That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no other besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity (literally "evil"); I am the Lord who does all these." I can find dozens of passages like this. Sorry Mark...He wins.
A couple of points. The claim of God causing evil is simply wrong. God is the opposite of evil. He is not, and cannot be the cause of evil. The second is that God is the God of Mercy, of Love, and of Salvation. Are all men saved? Obviously not, since not all men are saved. Yet we must consider:
Isaiah 45: 23 By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word: To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear, 24 Saying, "Only in the LORD are just deeds and power. Before him in shame shall come all who vent their anger against him.
which is mirrored in:
Philippians 2: 9 Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.
1 Timothy 2: Chapter 2 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
Revelation 5: 11 I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless 5 in number, 12 and they cried out in a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing." 13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."
Oh, boy. I am not a Universalist, but these verses are pretty significant towards a universal offer of grace and recognition of God. It is not a matter of God winning. It is a matter of the reason for His Creation - to have a willing love for Him forever in Heaven.