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To: Godzilla
Jesus and the apostles never told followers to ‘take up their garden and follow him’, or “I will glory in the garden” No, it is always the cross - probably for a very good reason - the garden had nothing to do with it.

Certainly something significant happened in the Garden. Luke tells us that Jesus was "in agony," and that "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." (Luke 22:44). That sounds as if Jesus was laboring under an enormous load.

That load, I believe, was the burden of the sins of mankind, which he bore until he died on the cross. If you believe otherwise, we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

I hope we can agree that Jesus atoned for the sins of mankind, that he died on the cross, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, and will return in glory. That is enough for me.

32 posted on 03/01/2010 8:09:22 PM PST by Logophile
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To: Logophile
Certainly something significant happened in the Garden. Luke tells us that Jesus was "in agony," and that "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." (Luke 22:44). That sounds as if Jesus was laboring under an enormous load. That load, I believe, was the burden of the sins of mankind, which he bore until he died on the cross. If you believe otherwise, we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

Yes, something did happen in the garden and as you said the FULL burden of sin became real. But the garden was not the place of atonement.

Do a word search - every time atonement is mentioned in the OT, it has to do with the SACRIFICE. Now, did that sacrifice occur in the garden or on the cross? If such a location is important it should be mentioned a lot. The garden is not mentioned outside of the gospels. However, the cross is referenced countless of times. And when you find the only reference to atonment in the NT, it is right in the middle of Paul's discourse on the Sacrifice of Jesus and what his death did - not any agony in the garden.

52 posted on 03/02/2010 9:02:22 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Logophile; Godzilla

Certainly something significant happened in the Garden. Luke tells us that Jesus was “in agony,” and that “his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.” (Luke 22:44). That sounds as if Jesus was laboring under an enormous load.

That load, I believe, was the burden of the sins of mankind

- - - - - - — - - - -
Of course He was under a burden, that is why there were angels. But the burden was the expectation of what was to come, not the sins of man.

As Godzilla pointed out, everything points to the Cross, and atonement references sacrifice, the shedding of blood and death of the sacrifice.

And I understand how the LDS view this, I did too. When I was LDS I downplayed the Cross, which I now see as because accepting that it was Christ’s ritual sacrifice as the perfect lamb (remember the OT system of Sacrifice is a type of Christ’s sacrifice) on the Cross showed that He took the FULL burden of my sins, not just what I couldn’t do. He did it ALL.

That is humbling and until I realized that my good works were unacceptable to God and that I was NOT one of His Children by birth, that my rightful place was separated from God and only through the Cross am I justified, only then could I see how important the Cross was and how insulting the LDS view of the Garden is to Christ’s perfect sacrifice.


130 posted on 03/02/2010 8:42:06 PM PST by reaganaut ( "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Logophile
I hope we can agree that Jesus atoned for the sins of mankind, that he died on the cross, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, and will return in glory. That is enough for me.

I agree with this statement. But what you left of Logo, is that Mormonism teaches a Universal salvation. Mormonism believes that because Christ was resurrected, that everyone is resurrected and "saved" into one of three kingdoms.

Tell me, logo - if everyone is saved what is hell?

183 posted on 03/03/2010 3:47:52 AM PST by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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