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To: Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; betty boop; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; MHGinTN; Godzilla
There is no balancing involved with a massless particle which has no direct or indirect measurable affects.

Really? Which massless particles? Photons have no measurable effects? Gluons? But they are never observed as independent particles. Neutrinos used to considered massless.

But it is all a matter of balancing out the formula. Since they have no mass, they must move at the speed of light. Take the formula E = mc2 , where c = speed of light and m = mass. It's obvious that 'massless" particles are not massless or else the Energy would be zero.  Anything multiplied by zero is zero.

So,  a physicist would say that a 'massless' particle does have a mass after all,  equal to unity (m= 1), conveniently, but only when it moves at the speed of light, or else its mass is zero. Thus at lower speeds the mass is presumed to be zero which then makes E = 0 and with zero energy a particle has no measurable effect and indeed doesn't even exist! (i.e. the energy is absorbed)

The formula, however, doesn't explain how the light passes trough glass and remains visible because Einstein's famous formula "works" only in a vacuum!

Assuming that the space is really a "vacuum" (it was when it was convenient to balance out the formula!), obviously 'universal' physical laws 'change'  on earth, and photons "morph" into different energy species, so to say, and are no longer 'massless' at lower speeds because obviously we can see the light refracting through glass!

But of course it's much more mysterious when one reads about 'massless particles' and all sorts of imagery wells up in human fancy. When scientific observations show that vacuum could not account for the necessary mass of the universe, they invented dark matter an dark energy to balance out their formula. Thirty years from now they will be laughing at these theories the way they laugh at the Steady State theory, or at the luminescent aether as the invisible interspace 'medium'.

I could respond to the rest of your post but it's getting old, sorry nothing personal.

959 posted on 03/12/2010 12:07:17 AM PST by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50; spirited irish; betty boop; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; MHGinTN; Godzilla; P-Marlowe; xzins
Thank you for your reply, dear kosta50!

I will leave all the “isms” to betty boop and spirited irish and leap right into the math and science.

As I said before, man cannot say that something which has no measureable direct or indirect effects does not exist.

That would apply to undetectable particles, undetectable fields, undetectable dimensions, undetectable types of dimensions, etc.

Photons, though massless, have measureable effects. They are detectable.

If a theory requires something to make it complete, e.g. a "cosmological constant" it is not undetectable, e.g. the constant must hold for all attempts to falsify the theory.

Your previous remarks need a primer on matter, relativity and beginning. From betty boop and my book and my previous posts on other threads.

Matter

The terms mass, matter, and energy can be confusing largely because they are used to define one another. For instance, mass is the measure of the matter of an object. Matter occupies space and has mass.

Energy is the amount of work required to change the state of a system. Adding to the confusion, energy is also used as a substitute term for relativistic mass.

Relativistic mass is the observed or apparent mass as an object approaches the speed of light and thereby increases mass. To the observer, the relativistic mass increases as the velocity of the object increases. The invariant mass is the rest mass — the unobserved or intrinsic mass — of the object itself.

Inertial mass is the resistance of an object to changing its state of motion when a force is applied to it. In relativity theory, inertial mass is equal to energy divided by the speed of light squared. In other words, E=MC2 transforms to M=E/C2.

Massless particles such as light (photons) cause confusion. In relativity, the energy of a massless particle is its momentum (p) times the speed of light: E=pc.

Massive objects, on the other hand, are described as E2/c2 = m2c2 + p2 (where E = energy, c = speed of light, m = mass, and p = momentum).

Because massless particles do not have a rest frame, they are always moving at the speed of light regardless of frame of reference; hence the “m” is dropped in the previous equation, and for massless particles, it reduces to E=pc.

Matter constitutes the observed universe (space/time). Matter density (mass relative to volume) in the universe is called the critical density.

Antimatter is matter composed of the antiparticles of the particles that compose matter. The Standard Model of physics shows that every particle has a corresponding antiparticle in which each additive quantum number (properties other than mass, such as charge) has a value negative to that of the corresponding “normal” particle. Thus the antiquark is the antiparticle of the quark, the positron the antiparticle of the electron, etc.

When matter and antimatter collide, they are mutually annihilated, and energy is released in a burst of radiation. Matter is also created by energy in pairs, as in the case where two or more photons interact so to create a new fermion/antifermion pair.

We infer our weight from the bathroom scales and are able to calculate the escape velocity necessary to get an object into space. Nevertheless, even though we are able to use these measurements every day, ordinary matter itself has neither yet been created by humans nor directly observed by them (Higgs field/boson). All matter’s properties are therefore inferences from indirect observations and indirect empirical tests. And even if directly observed at last, Higgs would account for only 5 percent of the critical density of the universe. The other 95 percent (25 percent dark matter, 70 percent dark energy) would remain yet to be explained.

Relativity

The "null path" is a difficult concept, i.e. to a photon traveling at the speed of light no time elapses.

The observers of the photon perceive time passing relative to their space/time coordinates. Moreover, space/time itself is expanding. So a photon sent to the observer's space/time coordinates by a star which was a million light years away might arrive eleven million light years later because space/time expanded while it was in route even though from the photon's perspective, no time elapsed.

The observer "in" space/time does not see such phenomena all at once. Nothing is at rest "in" space/time. To paraphrase Tegmark's Level IV cosmology, the observer "in" space/time would see two orbiting particles which the observer "outside" space/time would see as two strands in a double helix. To the observer "in" space/time it is about the relative motion and position. To the observer "outside" space/time it is about the geometry, the mathematical structure.

On top of that, space/time is warped to observers "in" space/time (general relativity.) The equivalence principle leaves us with unavoidable conclusions. While a week elapses for an observer near an event horizon (black hole) forty years might elapse on earth.

The higher the positive gravity regions (dark matter, centers of galaxies, black holes, etc.) the slower time elapses. These can be visualized as space/time indentations. Conversely, the lower the gravity (ordinary matter) the faster time elapses.

One of the most engaging speculations I've seen is that dark energy (space between galaxies) is negative gravity in 4D (gravity as inter-dimensional) which would make it a space/time "outdent" thereby accelerating the expansion of the universe.

Truly, no physical thing is at rest "in" space/time. Space/time is not at rest. And that is the core issue in trying to understand space/time.

My favorite example is a fly in your car going 5 mph. That is his speed from his perspective as the observer.

But your car is speeding down the road at 65 mph. So for the guy watching you from the roadside table, that fly is going 70 mph.

But the road you have taken is on the equator and the circumference of the earth at the equator is 24,901.55 miles and the earth rotates once every 24 hours. So that fly is now going 1,100 mph + 70 mph = 1,170 mph.

Moreover, the orbital length of earth traveling around the sun is 149,600,000 miles, traveled in 365.25 days. That is 67,000 miles per hour. So add that in, and the fly is going 68,170 mph.

The sun orbits the Milky Way galaxy at a speed of 486,000 miles per hour. Add that in, and the fly is now going 554,170 miles per hour.

All of this and we haven’t gotten to the accelerating expansion of the universe, i.e. space/time itself. Space/time doesn’t pre-exist – it is created as the universe expands.

A galaxy 1 million light years away would seem to be moving away from us at a rate of 60,000 miles per hour. For every 3.26 million light years further out that we look, the galaxies seem to be moving away from us at an additional 162,000 miles per hour. In sum, the universe is currently at least 156 billion light years wide.

And that is looking at motion from the fly’s perspective. If we go in the other direction as "observer" – the quantum – the cumulative velocities are even more mind-boggling.

Which brings us to a point where man – especially a man of science and math - has no excuse for ignoring God the Creator.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

Beginning

Even the wisdom of men - absent Spiritual discernment - arrives at the same conclusion. Infinity is a mathematically convenient concept, but physical reality is finite.

Because we are able to assign a symbol to represent “infinity” and manipulate such a symbol according to specific rules, one might assume that corresponding infinite entities (e.g. particles or universes) exist. But the actual (i.e. realized in contrast to potential or conceptual) physical (in contrast to mathematical) infinite has been criticized vehemently [as] being not constructible, implying contradictions, etc. (cf. Hilbert 1964, p. 136–151; Spitzer 2000; Ellis & Kirchner 2004, ch 5)...

Vaas: Time before Time

Logicians would quickly point out that ex nihilo is not something out of nothing, since God must be the Creator.

But that's just bickering over terms. Most importantly, why should there be something instead of nothing at all.

But also ex nihilo goes to the heart of physical cosmologists (e.g. Steinhardt and his cyclic model, Hawkin and his imaginary time model): because the physical cosmologist cannot explain the origin of real time, he must take it as a "given."

Infinity past is a "belief" of all atheists which does not hold up to scrutiny by math or science.

Real time and real space are required for physical causation which is the fundamental necessary element for all physical cosmologies whether multi-verse, ekpyrotic, multi-world or whatever.

For instance, the big bang/inflationary model - most widely accepted - is not ex nihilo.

Mathematically, the dimension of a space is the minimum number of coordinates (axes) necessary to identify a point within the space.

A space of zero dimensions is a point; one dimension, a line, two dimensions, a plane; three, a cube, etc.

That is the geometry of it. In zero dimensions, the mathematical point is indivisible.

It is not nothing. It is a spatial point.

In ex nihilo Creation, the dimensions are not merely zero, they are null, dimensions do not exist at all. There is no space and no time. Period.

There is no mathematical point, no volume, no content, no scalar quantities. Ex nihilo doesn’t exist in relationship to anything else; there is no thing.

In an existing physical space, each point (e.g. particle) can be parameterized by a quantity such as mass. The parameter (e.g. a specific quantity within the range of possible quantities) is in effect another descriptor or quasi-dimension that uniquely identifies the point within the space.

Moreover, if the quantity of the parameter changes for a point, then a time dimension is invoked. For example, at one moment the point value is “0” and the next it is “1”.

Wave propagation cannot occur in null dimensions nor can it occur in zero spatial dimensions, a mathematical point; a dimension of time is required for any fluctuation in a parameter value at a point.

But there’s more. Wave propagation must also have a spatial/temporal relation from cause point to effect point, i.e. physical causation.

For instance “0” at point nt causes “1” at point n+1t+1 and “1” at point nt+1 etc.. Obviously, physical wave propagation cannot precede space/time and physical causality.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Both space and time are required for physical causation.

All physical cosmologies require space and time for physical causality. Period.

There is no ex nihilo explanation for the beginning of real space and real time and therefore physical causality.

And because, since the 1960’s forward, measurements of the cosmic microwave background radiation consistently agree that the universe is expanding – that there was a beginning of real space and real time – we know that there was creation ex nihilo. Moving the goalpost back to prior universes does not make that issue go away.

Only God can be the uncaused cause, The Creator.

Space, time and causation are not properties of God the Creator. They are properties of the Creation.

Only God is uncaused.

Only the fool believes that God does not exist.

The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God... - Psalms 14:1

Einstein and Newton, by the way, the greatest science minds known to me, were not fools.

God's Name is I AM.


1,021 posted on 03/12/2010 12:15:37 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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