I said choice, not chance. God deliberately gives us that choice, rather than making it for us.
Marlowe is right in noting that whether it is chance or choice leaves the question of explaining chance or not alive. If the "who grabs the rope" analogy matched the reality in numbers of who accepts Christ, then how could it not be chance if the decision to grab the rope really is the person's alone to make without coercion or interference. Some would grab the rope, but most would not.
Yes, this means we are not chosen for salvation before creation, although the end result is known before creation.
That would seem to define a chance outcome if God makes no decision concerning individual salvation before the foundations.
And this makes all those verses about needing to believe, and about our receiving life by believing, and about entering into the grace on which we stand by faith meaningful verses.
No, they become less meaningful because they diminish God's sovereignty in choosing His sheep. But when read in light of God's sovereignty they are meaningful because they explain how God implements His decisions to elect.
If we have no choice in it, then the only critical link in our salvation is election. If elect, according to Calvin, we are predestined to salvation no matter what, and the verses about belief are a lie - for we don’t receive life by believing, but by being elect.
The verses about belief do not become lies because they do not HAVE to be read as supporting random salvation. As I have been saying, election is a package deal. Believing is a part of that package and must and does happen in the normal course. Therefore, it is possible to say that we receive life both by believing and by being elected. For both to be simultaneously true just means that God's promises are equally sure as any fact which has already occurred in the past. Technically, though, eternal life is given to those who already believe. So, while it is true that there are currently plenty of elect who do not yet believe, and thus do not technically have eternal life yet, it is an inviolate truth that they will at the time of God's choosing. If we were talking about my promises, this would all be a load of baloney sandwich. But because we are talking about God, certain liberties concerning certainty are fine IMO.
We enter into grace, not by faith, but by election. We are saved by grace thru election, not thru faith.
We do not argue that. Election comes first, then grace, then faith. We could say that we are saved IN election BY grace THROUGH faith.
“But when read in light of God’s sovereignty they are meaningful because they explain how God implements His decisions to elect....The verses about belief do not become lies because they do not HAVE to be read as supporting random salvation.”
I disagree. In Calvinism, there is only one critical step in the plan of salvation - election. If elect, everything else is given you. If not, nothing can or will happen. Election is critical, the rest is, as you say, part of the package.
However, scripture, hundreds of times over, says believing is the critical step. If you believe, you are placed in Christ and receive everything. If you don’t, you won’t.
Thus it is faith (a word that means one person believing in another) that gives us access (entry) to grace, as Paul explicitly states.
This isn’t a matter of your opinion or mine. Our opinions mean nothing. What does God say, in scripture? And what God never says is that election is the critical step - what gives us access to God’s grace. God never says, “I came to save the elect”, or, “I came to give life, that they might believe”.
John Calvin clearly teaches that only one thing matters - election. God teaches that only one thing matters - believing in Him. This isn’t up for discussion. Your philosophy & mine is meaningless. What God says is all that matters - and God says believing (faith) in Him is critical. Period. And He does so, not 6 times, not 23 times, but over 400 times in the New Testament alone!
“No, they become less meaningful because they diminish God’s sovereignty in choosing His sheep.”
God’s sovereignty is no less diminished by his setting his condition. If that condition is election by name before creation, it is his decision. If it is those who respond in faith, it is his decision.