Hi Nevadan and Norge. First off, the problem with NOT believing in Calvinism gives one the idea that GOD is somehow "weaker" than Satan. That somehow, Satan wins out and gets his way. And looking at the history of the human race, it would seem that Satan is really the one in charge.
Secondly, not believing in Calvinism gives the idea that there is no ultimate, underlying order in the universe. That death, pain, and suffering just sort of happen purposelessly, and that there's no ultimate aim behind things like natural disasters. If a young believer is battling a life-threatening illness, and has no belief that GOD is ultimately the one in control, what's the point in praying? And then, should he or she die, what solace would there be to the family members if they do not have faith in GOD'S sovereignty over the matter?
Just think, wasn't Christ's suffering, death, and resurrection prophecied for thousands of years? Christ prophecied it all throughout his ministry. He even knew Judas would betray him. Why? Because everything was going to go as PLANNED. GOD was fully in control of every last detail, and even what Satan meant for ill, GOD meant for good (as Christ's resurrection attests to)...which leads me to my final point:
GOD is not the author of evil. He *permits* evil. He *allows* for it because it plays a role in the fulfillment of His ultimate, eternal plan for His people. If you read the book of JOB, you'd see that He *permits* Satan to wreak havoc on even the lives of the most faithful people. But, even SATAN is ultimately under GOD'S jurisdiction. Satan can't work beyond what GOD allows. Because in the end, everything will go exactly as GOD intends.
“Secondly, not believing in Calvinism gives the idea that there is no ultimate, underlying order in the universe.”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nonsense.
Don’t get me wrong. I admire the Calvinist ethic. It has contributed immeasurably to this country’s greatness.
But what you posted is the same rewarmed sophistry that Calvinists always post.
God can and does delegate responsibility and is STILL sovereign. His sovereignty by definition means He CAN do that and isn’t “weaker” as a result.
You cannot have it both ways. Either God is the author of evil because He dictates every action or else God permits free will to occur with the resulting evil that satan and men may do.
If God directs satan, then He is the author of evil. We Christians reject that. We believe that God is not the author of evil. And therefore satan operates within Creation of his own free will, as we do.
re: “GOD is not the author of evil. He *permits* evil. He *allows* for it because it plays a role in the fulfillment of His ultimate, eternal plan for His people. If you read the book of JOB, you’d see that He *permits* Satan to wreak havoc on even the lives of the most faithful people. But, even SATAN is ultimately under GOD’S jurisdiction. Satan can’t work beyond what GOD allows. Because in the end, everything will go exactly as GOD intends.”
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What you stated above is not what pure calvinism teaches. When you say, “God permits” or “God allows”, you imply that people, even Satan, have a will and the ability to act on that will - but, all within the boundarys set by God. That is not calvinism. Pure 5 point calvinism teaches not just that God “allows” or “permits”, but that He is the initiator and source of the act - otherwise God is not “sovereign”.
I agree with you that God is sovereign - but it is how one defines that sovereignty that is the problem. For the calvinistis I personally know - in order for God to be sovereign He must not only allow or permit - He is the author and initiator of all human acts and acts of nature.
On a personal note, I have a very dear friend who is now in the “reformed” camp. It nearly destroyed out friendship because he wanted me to agree with him on all this calvinistic stuff. The “god” of calvinism is not the God of the Bible. You speak of praying to God - my question is “why pray” - it has already been determined what God is going to do. Nothing you say or ask has any bearing on God’s will.
I agree that God allows evil and sorrow because if He didn’t there wouldn’t be any freedom for people to love or reject God. I say “amen” to the Book of Job. Satan acted but God set restrictions. That is not calvinism. I don’t really think that you are a calvinist in the strict sense of the word.
A King being sovereign over his kingdom does not necessarily mean that everyone within his kingdom does what he desires - yet that King is still sovereign - it is his kingdom and he ulimately has the final say over the actions of his subject. His subjects are “free” to act and yet are accountable to their king. Calvinism teaches that God must be the source and initiator of even sinful acts of man - or, He is not sovereign. This is why they believe that man cannot respond to God’s grace without he/she being preordestined to believe - because human beings do not even have the ability to respond to God on their own - that human beings are incapable, because of their sinful nature, to accept God’s salvation for them.
That is not the God of the Bible that I know. This whole calvinism thing has been argued about for the past 400 years and will probably be argued about until Jesus returns. I know that somehow we have human freedom to love, accept, or reject God’s grace - and, yet, God is still sovereign and the initiator of that grace. Without Him taking that step we would have no hope. But, we must as a willful act on our own reach out for that lifeline - when that one reaches out He saves that one. The reaching out by individual human beings doe in no way take away from the glory and sovereignty of Almighty God.
What's the point in praying if God already decided a trillion years ago that he's going to die?
Calvinism is the scourge of Christianity.
“In Him is no darkness at all.”
Calvinism , in error at it’s very foundation, is a false doctrine that will burn in hell.
bttt