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To: Mr Rogers; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; P-Marlowe; xzins; the_conscience; HarleyD; Forest Keeper

“Did Cornelius receive commendation from God prior to his conversion, and did he interact with God prior to receiving the Holy Spirit?”

No, he communicated with an angel in a vision. But your comment was “And a centurion was commended for his “great faith” - even odder, since faith is a gift, and not something the centurion could have had... “ There is nothing in the story of Cornelius about faith nor is there any mention or indication that Cornelius exercised faith before he heard the gospel, in fact, he had to wait until the gospel was being preached.

“The father doesn’t go to the rebellious son and bring him irresistibly home”

That’s not what he parable is about. The parable is about the father’s concern for the lost son. That is the argument that Jesus was using against the Jews who were ridiculing him for dining with sinners. In another setting he said the well do not need doctors only the sick. Here it is he came to seek and to save the lost. The parable is not about the son; it is about the father, just as it is about the shepherd and the woman.


732 posted on 03/08/2010 4:48:31 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; P-Marlowe; xzins; the_conscience; HarleyD; Forest Keeper

BD: “No, he communicated with an angel in a vision. But your comment was “And a centurion was commended for his “great faith” - even odder, since faith is a gift, and not something the centurion could have had... “ There is nothing in the story of Cornelius about faith nor is there any mention or indication that Cornelius exercised faith before he heard the gospel, in fact, he had to wait until the gospel was being preached.”

1 - Cornelius: “ 1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.”

If an angel came and told me my prayers and alms had ascended as a memorial to God, I suppose I would consider it a commendation of sorts. It sure was a strange way of telling Cornelius he was DEAD in his sins, and repulsive to God!

2 - Centurion. Should have been clearer, I guess.

“He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.”

Read verse 9 - that is what I was referring to. Jesus was amazed at the GREAT FAITH of the Centurion.

BD: “The parable is about the father’s concern for the lost son.”

True enough, but what does the parable say? “ 17”When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’ 20So he got up and went to his father.”

Later the father refers to him as having been dead - so it seems ‘dead’ meant ‘alienated’, not incapable of repentance.

At a minimum, you ought to be able to grant that this passage:

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

COULD mean our sins had alienated us from God, and made us creatures God could have justly destroyed instead of granting us repentance. It MIGHT not refer to a corpse unable to respond to God’s grace. I don’t ask you to agree with me, just to admit that I’m not defying scripture by allowing that possibility!

And, of course, my interpretation means all those verses commanding men to repent and believe can be taken at face value, rather than requiring them to mean something else!


734 posted on 03/08/2010 6:53:56 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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