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To: Mr Rogers; HarleyD; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; raynearhood; xzins; RnMomof7; the_conscience
Ahhh...so Jesus meant “Whosoever is elect WILL believe and WILL be saved.” Or maybe he meant, “Those I love will believe and will be saved.” But that isn’t what he said.

Yes, that is what He meant, interpreted through the totality of scripture. If every single sentence He uttered HAD to be completely self-contained for all meaning, as you seem to argue, then the Bible would be 500,000 pages long. By Divine design the Bible was intended to be interpreted from within itself. Take your last example. You are right that it does not say "Those I love will believe and will be saved.” Do you therefore believe He meant that only those God hated will believe and be saved BECAUSE it doesn't say those He loved? Of course not. You can't say a verse lacks incorporated meaning because it doesn't present specific words. It MIGHT have incorporated meaning if supported by clear statement or reasonable inference from other scripture.

This is frankly why I think you do not know what to do (I think you said) with the predestination verses. They WOULD make perfect sense if taken in light of the rest of God's perfect and Holy word. God's sovereignty and sovereign choices are throughout scripture. The idea that God abdicated His sovereignty in making decisions personally in the case of humans deciding their own salvations is actually a glaring exception to the rest of scripture. Where else does God leave things to chance (whosoever will/won't)?

Actually, I have answered some reasons why some believe and others don’t. The prostitutes, for example, were aware of their need, while the Pharisees thought they already were righteous.

OK, and naturally I would ask how or why the prostitutes were aware and the Pharisees were not. Was it by chance?

But what he NEVER says is that it is because their names weren’t on his ‘Happy List of the Elect’ from before creation...or because he hates them and wants them to burn in hell for his glory.

But that is exactly what the predestination verses say (e.g. Rom. 8:28-39; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:9-10). And we have this which I think addresses your statement directly:

Rom. 9:14-24 : 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
726 posted on 03/08/2010 2:50:07 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; raynearhood; xzins; RnMomof7; the_conscience

“If every single sentence He uttered HAD to be completely self-contained for all meaning, as you seem to argue, then the Bible would be 500,000 pages long.”

I would be content with a SINGLE verse that explicitly teaches Calvinism!

It isn’t JUST John 3:16, it is hundreds of verses about believing and being saved. Without a SINGLE verse saying “If your name is on my list”!

Predestination is used 6 times in the New Testament. SIX TIMES! And not once is it used as a list of names that will be saved.

Elect is used a whopping 23 times! (In the AV, 16 times as elect and 7 as chosen.)

29 verses total, with NONE of them describing a list of names who are loved and irresistibly saved.

If that is the Gospel, why didn’t someone write something about it? Yes, God’s sovereignty is mentioned throughout scripture - and if his sovereign will is to save WHOSOEVER BELIEVES, that is still his sovereign will. Only in bizarro world does sovereignty = make every decision.

“But that is exactly what the predestination verses say (e.g. Rom. 8:28-39; Eph. 1:3-14; 2 Thess. 2:13-14; 2 Tim. 1:9-10).”

Not hardly. Romans 8 says those he foreknew, he predestined, called, etc. Foreknow does NOT equal predestined.

Ephesians 1 says nothing about a list of names, but “ 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.”

Indeed, the entire passage, running on thru chapter 2, is about us incorporate in Christ - corporate election, not individual salvation decisions. What did God choose? that in him we should be blameless and holy - the Gospel, not individual salvation decisions.

” 13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”

How did God choose us? By name? Or “through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth”? Where is the ‘name on a list’?

Romans 9 is part of Romans 9-11, which is answering the question, “Does Israel’s rejection of Christ mean they are no longer the chosen ones of God?” And the answer is, “For a time they are not, but God will bring them back in the end”.

Romans 9 is not about God making some individuals believe or not, but his setting aside Israel (corporate election, again) in favor of Gentiles. The chapter summary (so to speak, since there were no chapters as written) is this:

“That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone...For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

And it doesn’t impact individuals, since “whoever believes in him will not be put to shame”.

Paul discusses the Gospel in Chapters 1-8. Romans 9-11 discuss how it was possible for the chosen people to miss Jesus, and what will be their corporate fate. 12 on discusses living as a Christian.

Not only do Calvinists turn hundreds of verses about believing inside out so they can cling to bad interpretation of 30 verses, but they refuse to read Romans as a whole.

The Gospel is simple. God repeats it hundreds of times in the New Testament alone. It takes genius to turn corporate election into individual salvation, and then twist the remaining scriptures by the hundreds to match 30 screwed up readings.


728 posted on 03/08/2010 3:28:16 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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