WHO REALLY IS 'ANTI-CATHOLIC?'

Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | 1-23-10 | James Swan

[Cronos]

Whether it was there or not is beside the point.

Then why did you ask that question?

[Cronos]

Yes, that’s not worship. Those are statues, not divinity, not even statues of divinity.

[Cronos]

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Explain that in context to 1 Chr 28:18-19, Ezekial 41:17-18, Num 21:8-9, 1 Kings 6:29-31; 8:6-66, 2Chr 3:7-14

[Cronos]

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Bow down and serve them implies worship of the divine, which is what is not done for these objects of clay or marble or wood.

God revealed himself in physical form in the form of the Man Jesus and in the form of a dove (Matt 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, John 1:32) and as tongues of fire (Acts 2:1-4) for the Holy Spirit. These images are used when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and on Holy Spirit labels etc.

While God the Fathe did reveal himself too in visible forms like in Daniel 7:9 "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was ancient of days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire"

And of course, God did reveal a form for himself in Bethlehem which is why the magi "fell down and worshipped him" Matt 2:11.

An icon of Jesus Christ is just that, a depiction of the revealed God. It does not contain God or is God, it's just a depiction of Our Lord and Savior. Ditto for the pictures of saints. The Church does not transfer our notion of God to anything other than God -- those paintings, statues are not God, do not possess divinity or virtue of their own right

[Cronos]

Sorry, you're projecting now. Show me where in the CCC is there any claim for her divinity? Or for her having divine powers? All that she does is like what she did at Canaa -- pointed and prayed to Our Lord to help us.

The Church is Christ's bride, the repository of faith to the world. She has survived 2000 years of persecution, heresies, etc and has stayed true to Christ while all the heresies have died away. And she will survive, thanks to God's grace, when all the present heresies including secularism have died away.

[Uri’el-2012]

But do you mean that the Holy Spirit is separate from God (Father-and-Son)?

I view the Holy Spirit as the Breath(pneuma) of G-d

As when Yah'shua breathed on the Apostles.

YHvH also added a Hey (breath) to Abram
to create Abraham and to Sarai to create Sarah.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[Cronos]

Thank you — that is a beautiful description.

[roamer_1]

I have been following your posts and I must say.....YOU explain my confusion regarding the standard trinity MUCH better than I ever could! Thanks!! =)

Thank you for your kind words.

[roamer_1]

Actually we don't treat her like a goddess and do not claim she has any divine powers. Anything she has is granted by God.

C'mon, man. *rolls eyes* If you were on the outside, looking into any other religion that treats a woman as y'all treat Mary, I have *no doubt* you would be standing right beside wmfights and I. Take a step back, and see.

[roamer_1]

[roamer_1:] No, the "authorities" were the hierarchy over the "Church as a whole" wherein the church in question was only that which was not already excluded.

You're now telling me that you know it better than history? Better than the fact that this was the Church, not the hierarchy? If you wish to disagree, fine, but don't tell me that history was wrong and offer no proofs to the contrary.

I believe that you and I are talking past each other.

I will cede the point that the books that form the New Covenant canon grew together organically - That traditional attributions and outright popularity determined the canon long before it was made canon.

I will even cede that the council(s) gave great deference to what I would call the "organic canon," for the purposes of distinction...

I was speaking of the actual declaration of the canon (Trent). There were no ballots passed down to the lowest members. It was not by referendum. It was an high council - that's all.

[Iscool]

Bow down and serve them implies worship of the divine, which is what is not done for these objects of clay or marble or wood.

Sorry, it won't work for ya...It didn't say bow down and serve them...It says, bow down; or, server them...Either of which...But more importantly, God says don't even build the statues...

You can't wish your way out of it no matter how you spin it...God said don't do it...He did NOT say don't build these things if you are going to use them for worship...He said, Don't Build Them at all...

[roamer_1]

The council of Jamnia (not the Hebrews) "refined Jewish canon in 90 to 98 AD

Yahright, whatever...

Graetz has been discredited long ago. Even if he had been right, a Sanhedrin council from Jerusalem (in exile to be sure) holds far more credz than the Greek community.

[roamer_1]

Adoptionism is denied in the Word, Trinitarianism (and I'll give Modalism this) are not. Modalism is a tricky one for ME -- scripture doesn't give me a direct answer for or against it, so I'm willing to live and let live Uri's points (I don't agree with his view though)

This is a reasonable stance. However, I would assert that *none* are correct, and *ALL* are an artifice, each of which fail to contain Mighty Jehovah. He is the I AM. He is ONE.

[roamer_1]

[roamer_1:] Trinitarians must explain this separation - The all knowing Uber-3 are tied at the hip... How is it that Christ did not know?.

Trinitarians can explain this, modalists can't. The one being model of the Trinity xplains your dilemma.

Only by making the three superfluous. If Jesus DID know, the Hypostatic Union is an unnecessary construction.

It's not perfct but it is close (just like the old saying "Democracy is a bad form of government, but the others are worse"

That will not do as doctrine. As I said, boolean... TRUE or FALSE.

[Uri’el-2012]

Who is my Redeemer ?

NAsbU Ruth 4:14 Then the women said to Naomi,
"Blessed is YHvH who has not left you without
a redeemer today, and may his name become
famous in Israel.

NAsbU Job 19:25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer
lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.

NAsbU Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and
the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in
Your sight, O YHvH, my rock and my Redeemer.

NAsbU Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God
was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

NAsbU Isaiah 41:14 "Do not fear, you worm Jacob,
you men of Israel; I will help you," declares YHvH,
"and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.

NAsbU Isaiah 43:14 Thus says YHvH your Redeemer,
the Holy One of Israel, "For your sake I have sent
to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives,
Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.

NAsbU Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says YHvH, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, YHvH of hosts: 'I am the first and
I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

NAsbU Isaiah 44:24 Thus says YHvH, your Redeemer,
and the one who formed you from the womb,
"I, YHvH, am the maker of all things, Stretching
out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the
earth all alone,

NAsbU Isaiah 47:4 Our Redeemer, YHvH of hosts
is His name, The Holy One of Israel.

NAsbU Isaiah 48:17 Thus says YHvH, your Redeemer,
the Holy One of Israel, "I am YHvH your God,
who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the
way you should go.

NAsbU Isaiah 49:7 Thus says YHvH, the Redeemer of
Israel and its Holy One, To the despised One,
To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant
of rulers, "Kings will see and arise, Princes will
also bow down, Because of YHvH who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You."

NAsbU Isaiah 49:26 "I will feed your oppressors
with their own flesh, And they will become drunk
with their own blood as with sweet wine; And
all flesh will know that I, YHvH, am your
Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

NAsbU Isaiah 54:5 "For your husband is your Maker,
Whose name is YHvH of hosts; And your Redeemer
is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God
of all the earth.

NAsbU Isaiah 54:8 "In an outburst of anger I hid
My face from you for a moment, But with everlasting
lovingkindness I will have compassion on you,"
Says YHvH your Redeemer.

NAsbU Isaiah 59:20 "A Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,"
declares YHvH.

NAsbU Isaiah 60:16 "You will also suck the milk of
nations And suck the breast of kings; Then you
will know that I, YHvH, am your Savior And your
Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

NAsbU Isaiah 63:16 For You are our Father, though
Abraham does not know us And Israel does not
recognize us. You, O YHvH, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.

NAsbU Jeremiah 50:34 "Their Redeemer is strong,
YHvH of hosts is His name; He will vigorously
plead their case So that He may bring rest
to the earth, But turmoil to the inhabitants of Babylon.

Is YHvH your Redeemer ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[roamer_1]

[...] tell me this -- if you say "one God" yet that Jesus is God and yet that Jesus and God is separate, how do you co-relate those 3 statements?

Yahweh is One God. He IS GOD. Can you say that anything He desires is beyond His ability?

[roamer_1]

[roamer_1:] Whether it was there or not is beside the point.

Then why did you ask that question?

In answer to your questions:

[Cronos:] That is, anyone who accepts Jesus as their Lord?

What of those who reject Jesus Christ's divinity yet call him Lord or Prophet?

src

IOW, Since Christ did not declare it before His followers at the time, since an imperfect knowledge was fine then, why would it be anything else today?

It is precisely this kind of exclusion that began this conversation.

[roamer_1]

Yes, that’s not worship. Those are statues, not divinity, not even statues of divinity.

On your knees in front of a statue is worship.

All that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego needed to do is bow before "a statue"... a representation of a creature... They even knew the creature (Nebuchadnezzar II) personally. No chance they "thought he was divinity"... Yet they would *not* bow. On pain of death, even.

A very good lesson to remember.

[editor-surveyor]

No, it was one person, in power, and the rest of the pagans followed on.