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To: Alamo-Girl; kosta50; betty boop; Quix; boatbums; Joya; YHAOS; xzins; stfassisi; hosepipe; ...

How can we have a thoughtful discussion and exploration if we cannot agree on objective truth?

It sounds like a cult. I mean if I don’t see what you (RM: general you in English) see (you being the spiritually initiated) I am spiritually blind.

If all spiritual understanding has to occur under some divine trance or otherliness why are we trapped in reality? Why have a Bible that is so inconsistent and confusing vis a vis the stated Doctrines of Christianity?

What makes one a Christian? Is it designed to be confusing? You cannot know God even after becoming a full heir with Christ?

Do people just pick a doctrine and go with it regardless of the consequences, inconsistencies or illogic of it?


1,286 posted on 02/16/2010 10:52:40 AM PST by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD; kosta50; betty boop; Quix; boatbums; Joya; YHAOS; xzins; stfassisi; hosepipe; MarkBsnr
How can we have a thoughtful discussion and exploration if we cannot agree on objective truth?

Man cannot know "objective truth" because he cannot see "all that there is" all at once. He is in fact part of the very thing he seeks to observe.

For that reason, you and I can never agree on objective truth.

It sounds like a cult. I mean if I don’t see what you (RM: general you in English) see (you being the spiritually initiated) I am spiritually blind.

Christianity has long been called a cult by those who are not Christian. No big deal.

Likewise, people who say they are Christian but deny the indwelling Holy Spirit often call those who testify of the indwelling Spirit "gnostic." Again, no big deal.

And no, the spiritual man cannot convey spiritual matters to the natural man. It is futile to try.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

You ask: What makes one a Christian?

God. As Jesus said, you MUST be born again. Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. We die to the world and become alive with Christ in God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8

And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? – Acts 11:15-17

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:5

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

You asked: Is it designed to be confusing?

Actually it is designed by God to be unattainable by reasoning alone.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - I Corinthians 1:18-25

You asked: You cannot know God even after becoming a full heir with Christ?

We Christians "know" God as in recognize Him, are aware of Him and receive all that He reveals of Himself to each of us, individually.

Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. - Matt 22:42

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:15

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – I Cor 12:3

You asked: Do people just pick a doctrine and go with it regardless of the consequences, inconsistencies or illogic of it?

Evidently that happens a lot. Man tends to pile up his own thoughts on top of the words of God.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. – Deuteronomy 4:2

Perhaps it is because man wants things to "add up" - to be rational to his own way of thinking.

But the words of God - whether Genesis, the Gospel of John, the book of Revelation - all of them are spiritual. They cannot be received by the natural man, e.g. via a scholar's historical/critical methods or the scientific method.

"Ears to hear" are a gift of God. There is no substitute.

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

1,288 posted on 02/16/2010 11:20:19 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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