Posted on 01/23/2010 4:09:32 PM PST by NYer
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2
Most Protestant Christians believe that the Bible is the only source concerning faith. According to them, there is no need for Apostolic Tradition or an authoritative, teaching Church. All that they need is the Bible in order to learn about the faith and to live a Christian life. The "Bible Alone" teaching can be appealing in its simplicity, but it suffers from fundamental problems. A few are considered here.
First the Bible itself states that not everything important to the Christian faith is recorded in it. For example, not everything that Christ did is recorded in the inspired Books:
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25; RSV]
According to John 20:31, some things have been recorded in the Gospel in order to come to know Christ; however, John 21:25 suggests that there is still more to know about Him. At least for St. John the Apostle, there was more that he needed to teach which was not recorded in the Bible:
I had much to write you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face. [3 John 13-14]
Also St. Paul instructs Timothy on how to orally pass on the teachings of the faith:
...what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. [2 Tim. 2:2]
St. Paul even commands (2 Thess. 3:6) the Thessalonian Christians to follow the oral Traditions of the Apostles:
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us (Apostles), either by word of mouth (oral) or by letter (Epistle). [2 Thess. 2:15]
These commands promoting Oral Tradition would be quite strange, if only the Bible were needed to pass on the entire Christian faith.
A second problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is canonicity - i.e. which Books belong in the Bible? It must be remembered that the Books of the Bible were written individually along with other religious books. Centuries later the Church compiled together the inspired Books under one cover to form the "Bible." A big question in the early Church was which books are the inspired written Word of God. (Inspired=written by men but authored by God; See Catechism of the Catholic Church 106.)
Scripture did not come with an "inspired" Table of Contents. Nowhere in the sacred texts are all the Books listed. There are some Books cited in the sacred writings but these lists are vague and incomplete (Acts 28:23; 2 Peter 3:16). There are also references to books not found in the Bible, such as St. Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans (Col. 4:16). St. Paul even encourages the Colossians to read this epistle, but still it is not in the Bible. Jesus in the Gospel never attempts to list the "official" Books of the Old Testament (OT). This issue was hotly debated in His day. Today Protestant and Catholic Christians disagree over which Books belong in the OT. Catholics follow the list in the Septuagint (2nd century B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture) while Protestants follow the list used by the Pharisees. A list from Jesus could have eliminated this problem, but no such list is found in the Gospel. As a result the Bible needs a visible authority outside of itself to list the inspired sacred Books. This authority must be guided by the Holy Spirit since these Books are from the Holy Spirit.
Some Christians claim that the Table of Contents in their Bible lists the inspired Books. Even though found in modern Bibles, the Table of Contents is still not inspired. It is not the Word of God but words added later by human editors, much similar to footnotes. The Table of Contents is basically the opinion of the publishing editor. Others may claim that the closing verses in the Book of Revelation, specifically Rev. 22:18-19, cap off the Bible and define all the preceding Books as inspired by God. But do these verses apply to the whole Bible or only the Book of Revelation? Another flaw with this idea is that not all Bibles have the same number of Books. As alluded to above, Catholic and Protestant Bibles contain different numbers of OT Books, yet all these Bibles close with the same verses: Rev. 22:18ff. Both cannot be right. Finally the Book of Deuteronomy contains similar verses (4:2 & 12:32). Does this imply that the Books after Deuteronomy are not inspired by God? No.
A third problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is proper understanding of critical Bible passages. Most Protestant Christians promote personal interpretation of the Bible, i.e. anyone can interpret these passages by himself. Unfortunately this leads to chaos. For example over Baptism, some Protestants accept the validity of infant Baptism, while others do not. Some believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation, citing Mark 16:16, while others disagree by citing John 3:16. They all claim to be Bible-based, but still they disagree over fundamental issues regarding salvation. Sadly the "Yellow Pages" phone directory is a witness to the many "Bible-Based" churches who disagree with each other over key issues of the Christian faith. Personal interpretation of the Bible naturally leads to a mire of human doctrines as a result of differing personal opinions.
The Bible was not written as a catechism. It is a collection of many different styles of writing - poetry, history, parables, letters, songs, etc. - requiring different ways of understanding. Sometimes Jesus in the Gospel purposely taught in figurative language and parables, which makes literal interpretation impossible. Even St. Peter admits that St. Paul's Epistles can be difficult to understand:
...Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. [2 Peter 3:15-16]
Finally the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:30ff needed St. Philip to explain the Book of Isaiah. Obviously not everyone can understand the meaning of Scripture by simply reading it. More is required. These difficulties in the Bible demand an independent visible teaching authority that is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Even the Bible points to the importance of the Church for teaching the Truth. According to St. Peter in the Bible:
First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. [2 Peter 1:20-21]
At least prophecies in the Bible are not a matter of personal interpretation. These prophesies must be properly interpreted by "men moved by the Holy Spirit" since the Holy Spirit is the Author. These "men" are the Bishops of the Church - the successors to the Apostles (Acts 20:28-32). Finally the Bible does not call itself the bulwark of the truth; however, St. Paul does make reference to the Church in those terms:
...the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. [1 Tim. 3:15]
According to the Bible, the Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
All Christians, including Catholics, should read the Bible in order to grow more in the faith; however, we still need the Church. The Church is needed to accurately pass on Apostolic Tradition (Romans 10:17), define the canon of the Bible (i.e. list the inspired Books), safeguard the accurate transmission (e.g. translations) of the Bible and interpret key passages, all with guidance from the Holy Spirit according to God's Will. The Church is needed for other reasons too. It must be understood that the Church is not merely men making arbitrary decisions but men executing authority from God guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church may at times be tested by scandals or scarred by the sins of men. We may sometimes disagree with the policies of the Church, but she is still the instrument of the Holy Spirit. This visible Church is the one built by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, the rock (Matt. 16:18-19; John 1:24). This is the Catholic Church.
You are ragingly WRONG again.
1. First, I just noted I’d lived in Asia a long time.
2. 2nd, I noted what it SEEMED like.
Sometimes your perspective appears to be extremely . . . distorted if not outright fraudulent compared to normal reality.
The goal is to raise those to rule and reign with Christ . . . evidently over countless worlds and countless ages.
Seems to be working pretty well, to me.
BTW, it often appears that you have
lost to death
—a cherished sibling or close friend or
—a cherished parent or
—a child
or more than one of the above.
I don’t think it works for you at all.
I think that’s bluster and pretense that it works for you.
I think the bitterness and resentments are eating a hole in your heart, in your soul, in your spirit . . .
For now...
Let me refresh your apparently fading recent memory: you said you had lived in Asia for some years and I asked you what was your point? To which you replied:
You seemed to be of the opinion that I had no first hand experience with extreme poverty.
?!? At first I wanted to do a Quix-fit on you with big blue letters, but I pulled back and, looking at the nonsense you wrote and simply replied to what is obvious:
As usual, you seem to be jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth.
To which you come back with
Sometimes your perspective appears to be extremely . . . distorted if not outright fraudulent compared to normal reality.
Perhaps you didn't understand me: I asked what was your point! And you come back with this is "outright fraudulent compared to normal reality?" Do you even realize what you are saying? I am beginning to wonder.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the short circuit is on your end?!?
Quix, I am never sure when you will lucidly, in context, and when out of the left field. I hate to tell you, your answers are void of any facts, or references or substance. They are just broken up sentences with ... in between them (whatever that means — maybe changing frames or something). You are really tiresome, and that's putting it politely. Just drop it.
Maybe. Maybe Santa really does exist. C'mon boatbums, you have nothing to show me why I should believe you. Maybe that;'s good enough for you, but not for me.
Everyone suffers a loss. Unlike some I don't blame God. In fact, I have been extremely blessed all my life, above average, in love and comfort, and I am grateful for my good fortune.
But I do not place the burden on God for my fortune or misfortune. In this world everything that lives also dies. We can't rebel against it or blame anyone for it. That's how it is. We should make what we have as pleasant and lasting as possible.
What comes afterwords is as good as anyone's guess. We should have no regrets leaving this world. We live here and now, and we can make it miserable or we can make it pleasant. Obviously some delight in making it miserable and shoving their superstitions down everyone's throat.
Live a life while you have it and count your blessings. Live and let live.
Dear kosta (I am being sincere), I don't expect you to believe me, why should you? You don't even know me except for our posting history going back, what, a year? But, why would I lie about something like this? I'm not interested at all in winning an argument, if I was, I could come up with much more fantastical stories than this. I have a great imagination!
I am sure you have considered a lot of things to have the knowledge you have. I admire your capacity for knowledge, but I am saddened that I can't see wisdom in what you say. You have an understanding of what you've experienced, but it is flavored by pessimism and a certain telling despair.
I am trying to ask you to step out in faith, maybe once again, and believe Jesus for who he says he is. Between you and God - don't admit it to anybody you're doing it - just ask him to show you the truth, and mean it, cuz he knows ;o) I think there are enough people praying for you that you WILL find what you are looking for. I know God is true because he answered that request for me. He wants faith if you come to him and I know it seems impossible to do. All I ask is for you to try.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
bess him lil ol heart!
I’m glad that’s something you can assert.
Your postings have made it appear otherwise.
Your postings appear to be rife with bitterness and resentment.
So now, I’m left even more puzzled about the source of such.
I suspect in many cases, people with a negative outlook suffer from self-pity which is a form of pride. And I suspect some are negative because they truly believe they know the ways things ought to be. That is also pride.
And thank you for your answer. Isn't that pride thingy at the top of God's no-no list? I seem to remember reading somewhere that he hates that trait in us most of all.
If I were to testify to you that I have a 40 year old daughter, I suspect you would not say "prove it."
And yet you demand "proof" when I testify that God is not a hypothesis. He lives. His Name is I AM. I've known Him for a half century and counting.
God's words are spirit and life. The words of men are neither spirit nor life. He brings His own words alive within me and I therefore believe Him and trust Him above all else.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen. - Revelation 22:16-21
Now, if I were to testify to you that my husband keeps all his promises, I suspect you would not say "prove it." Yet I fully expect you to demand "proof" that God will keep this promise.
And I of course will not "prove" any of this to you.
To God be the glory, not man, never man.
When you say "there is no evidence" you should finish the statement with "acceptable to me"
No, I don't see any evidence other than faith (hope) presented. Some people are willing to accept on faith things they hope for. I am not, because then there is no stopping me to invent and believe pink unicorns on Jupiter are real.
And God's words include the promise of the new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21).
You say they are God's words, and I say prove it. What makes them "God's" words except your faith (hope) that they are, and you willingness to believe they are real.
I testify that the new heaven and new earth is a "done deal." It is truth because He said it.
No, dear AG, it is truth to you because you are willing to believe it is. That's what faith (hope) is. You trust that it is so.
If I were to testify to you that I have a 40 year old daughter, I suspect you would not say "prove it."
I wouldn't, because that is not an extraordinary claim. And that is something that could, ultimately be factually proven if need be. Now, if I had reason to believe that you are 45 years old and you testify that you have a 40-year old daughter, then I would most definitely ask you for a proof.
Now, if I were to testify to you that my husband keeps all his promises, I suspect you would not say "prove it."
I would probably think you are exaggerating (how do you prove 'all'?) and would not believe you, but I would not ask you to prove it simply because is it possible that your husband keeps the majority of his promises, so much so that you don't remember last time he didn't? Sure, that is within human nature, even if the claim is a little exaggerated.
And I of course will not "prove" any of this to you.
Of course, because there is no proof; there is only faith. :)
I gave you “evidence” acceptable to me and the best you could muster was “That’s Wonderful”. May the truth find you. God Bless
You have an understanding of what you've experienced, but it is flavored by pessimism and a certain telling despair.
Boatbums, I am not filled with despair and there is no pessimism in me. I don't think God owes me anything. I have no resentment towards the world or God. I do dislike some thing s I see as man-made attributes (anthropomorphisms) of God, but that's another story.
I simply realized and admitted that I don't know what this is all about or why. There are horrible things in the word and then there are incredibly wonderful things. There is beauty and there is ugliness, and there is "feel good" and "feel bad."
To a large extent we are the ones who are repsonsible for both the feel good and the feel bad, as if nature itself doesn't provide enough of her share.
I appreciate the concern and the prayers but I assure you that I am not angry, pessimistic or sad. I have nothing personally against the people of faith, or God.
All I do is ask question of those who make claims. If I were to say that I can see you, I am sure you would wonder how. If I told you I have special eyes and ears, would you believe me? Of course not!
I was a practicing Christian because I never asked myself that crucial question: "How do I know that?" Once I did I realized that it was all my imagination. I am not saying it is yours, all I am saying is that I failed where everyone else failed, namely to answer the simple question without offering faith as fact.
Just as you can't, on my word, accept that I have special eyes with which I can see you, I can't accept it either because it is now how the real world is.
Some faiths, such as the Eastern Orthodox faith I was raised in, which is basically an Eastern version of the Catholic Faith, or the Roman Catholic Faith, profess that dead people can hear our prayers.
The Protestants don't believe it. They say they are dead, and we say they are alive and therefore can spiritually hear us. You see, what I am doing is not much different than what believers do amongst each other: they reject each others' beliefs as unfounded.
I may resort to scientific proof, but believers resort to Biblical proof; the method is the same. I look for objective evidence and so do Bible believers. The Bible is an objective fact—it's a ook! That doesn't mean that ist words are objecotbvely true, but they do objectively exist.
The Catholic/Orthodox Church says what the whole truth known to her has been known from the start, and not all of it contained in the Bible but in the Holy Tradition (in the liturgical life of the Church).
To which the Evangelicals simply say "only the Bible is the authority," hence sola scriptura, even tough there is no sola scripturea mentioned by name or as a concept anywhere in the Bible!
As regards my "mental state" please do not practice psychoanalysis, because there is nothing to analyze. I realize that most of the people who react to my questions do so because they are actually concerned for my soul, and I am very appreciative of that. But I am not doing this for sympathy or for attention. I am simply asking questions I couldn't answer myself, out of curiosity to see if someone might be able to answer them.
Consider my questions not an attack on your faith but an inquiry into what makes it true, and don't be offended if I don't agree. :)
Likewise.
It's in response to how people use their religion and how they make their own God. But I am not bitter or resentful. I just find some things people do detestable, wrong, repulsive, hypocritical, dishonest, fantastic, you name it.
Live the life you have and count your blessings and try to make someone else feel good is my motto. If you have more than you need, give what you don;t need to those who need it more than you. Happier world is much nicer. I don't care what God you worship, how you pray and what you believe as long as you don't push your beliefs, your God(s) and your worship on me, and don't get offended if I respectfully disagree with yours.
LOLOL!!!
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