Do Christians Need Only the Bible?

cna ^

[NYer]

I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2

Most Protestant Christians believe that the Bible is the only source concerning faith. According to them, there is no need for Apostolic Tradition or an authoritative, teaching Church. All that they need is the Bible in order to learn about the faith and to live a Christian life. The "Bible Alone" teaching can be appealing in its simplicity, but it suffers from fundamental problems. A few are considered here.

First the Bible itself states that not everything important to the Christian faith is recorded in it. For example, not everything that Christ did is recorded in the inspired Books:

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. [John 21:25; RSV]

According to John 20:31, some things have been recorded in the Gospel in order to come to know Christ; however, John 21:25 suggests that there is still more to know about Him. At least for St. John the Apostle, there was more that he needed to teach which was not recorded in the Bible:

I had much to write you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face. [3 John 13-14]

Also St. Paul instructs Timothy on how to orally pass on the teachings of the faith:

...what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. [2 Tim. 2:2]

St. Paul even commands (2 Thess. 3:6) the Thessalonian Christians to follow the oral Traditions of the Apostles:

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us (Apostles), either by word of mouth (oral) or by letter (Epistle). [2 Thess. 2:15]

These commands promoting Oral Tradition would be quite strange, if only the Bible were needed to pass on the entire Christian faith.

A second problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is canonicity - i.e. which Books belong in the Bible? It must be remembered that the Books of the Bible were written individually along with other religious books. Centuries later the Church compiled together the inspired Books under one cover to form the "Bible." A big question in the early Church was which books are the inspired written Word of God. (Inspired=written by men but authored by God; See Catechism of the Catholic Church 106.)

Scripture did not come with an "inspired" Table of Contents. Nowhere in the sacred texts are all the Books listed. There are some Books cited in the sacred writings but these lists are vague and incomplete (Acts 28:23; 2 Peter 3:16). There are also references to books not found in the Bible, such as St. Paul's Epistle to the Laodiceans (Col. 4:16). St. Paul even encourages the Colossians to read this epistle, but still it is not in the Bible. Jesus in the Gospel never attempts to list the "official" Books of the Old Testament (OT). This issue was hotly debated in His day. Today Protestant and Catholic Christians disagree over which Books belong in the OT. Catholics follow the list in the Septuagint (2nd century B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture) while Protestants follow the list used by the Pharisees. A list from Jesus could have eliminated this problem, but no such list is found in the Gospel. As a result the Bible needs a visible authority outside of itself to list the inspired sacred Books. This authority must be guided by the Holy Spirit since these Books are from the Holy Spirit.

Some Christians claim that the Table of Contents in their Bible lists the inspired Books. Even though found in modern Bibles, the Table of Contents is still not inspired. It is not the Word of God but words added later by human editors, much similar to footnotes. The Table of Contents is basically the opinion of the publishing editor. Others may claim that the closing verses in the Book of Revelation, specifically Rev. 22:18-19, cap off the Bible and define all the preceding Books as inspired by God. But do these verses apply to the whole Bible or only the Book of Revelation? Another flaw with this idea is that not all Bibles have the same number of Books. As alluded to above, Catholic and Protestant Bibles contain different numbers of OT Books, yet all these Bibles close with the same verses: Rev. 22:18ff. Both cannot be right. Finally the Book of Deuteronomy contains similar verses (4:2 & 12:32). Does this imply that the Books after Deuteronomy are not inspired by God? No.

A third problem with the "Bible Alone" teaching is proper understanding of critical Bible passages. Most Protestant Christians promote personal interpretation of the Bible, i.e. anyone can interpret these passages by himself. Unfortunately this leads to chaos. For example over Baptism, some Protestants accept the validity of infant Baptism, while others do not. Some believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation, citing Mark 16:16, while others disagree by citing John 3:16. They all claim to be Bible-based, but still they disagree over fundamental issues regarding salvation. Sadly the "Yellow Pages" phone directory is a witness to the many "Bible-Based" churches who disagree with each other over key issues of the Christian faith. Personal interpretation of the Bible naturally leads to a mire of human doctrines as a result of differing personal opinions.

The Bible was not written as a catechism. It is a collection of many different styles of writing - poetry, history, parables, letters, songs, etc. - requiring different ways of understanding. Sometimes Jesus in the Gospel purposely taught in figurative language and parables, which makes literal interpretation impossible. Even St. Peter admits that St. Paul's Epistles can be difficult to understand:

...Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. [2 Peter 3:15-16]

Finally the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:30ff needed St. Philip to explain the Book of Isaiah. Obviously not everyone can understand the meaning of Scripture by simply reading it. More is required. These difficulties in the Bible demand an independent visible teaching authority that is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Even the Bible points to the importance of the Church for teaching the Truth. According to St. Peter in the Bible:

First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. [2 Peter 1:20-21]

At least prophecies in the Bible are not a matter of personal interpretation. These prophesies must be properly interpreted by "men moved by the Holy Spirit" since the Holy Spirit is the Author. These "men" are the Bishops of the Church - the successors to the Apostles (Acts 20:28-32). Finally the Bible does not call itself the bulwark of the truth; however, St. Paul does make reference to the Church in those terms:

...the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. [1 Tim. 3:15]

According to the Bible, the Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
All Christians, including Catholics, should read the Bible in order to grow more in the faith; however, we still need the Church. The Church is needed to accurately pass on Apostolic Tradition (Romans 10:17), define the canon of the Bible (i.e. list the inspired Books), safeguard the accurate transmission (e.g. translations) of the Bible and interpret key passages, all with guidance from the Holy Spirit according to God's Will. The Church is needed for other reasons too. It must be understood that the Church is not merely men making arbitrary decisions but men executing authority from God guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church may at times be tested by scandals or scarred by the sins of men. We may sometimes disagree with the policies of the Church, but she is still the instrument of the Holy Spirit. This visible Church is the one built by Jesus Christ on St. Peter, the rock (Matt. 16:18-19; John 1:24). This is the Catholic Church.

[1010RD]

You are right. Clearly, the Trinity is not a doctrine of Salvation or Christ would have spelled it out to us, no?

From the perspective of Heaven it will all look a bit trivial I suspect.

[MarkBsnr]

Not only that, If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste more like prunes than rhubarb does.

Be very careful. You really don't want to get:

[Quix]

Lots of things will be clarified . . . from the crucial to the substantive to the trivial, I suspect.

[kosta50]

When I was younger I had a hard time understanding why gnosticism was designated as a heresy in the Church. After all, Christ sure seemed to display strong gnostic tendencies, and aren't we supposed to emulate Christ?

Right on both accounts. Jesus is, after all, portrayed as a man who knew too much (cf Mat 11:27). I think one of the most compelling Gnostic verses in the NT is Luke 8:10 "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God".

John's very spiritual Gospel appealed to Gnostics, as did Paul. Even one of the most orthodox early Church Fathers, St. Ignatius, is decidedly Gnostic in his views (at the turn of the century this has not yet become a particular problem for the Church, at least for another 80 or so years).

Christ particularly well agrees with the idea of the Gnostic Demiurge, a Platonic concept of a creator eity (also identified as a Mind or Logos, the Word by nbeoplatonsiosts), which was dear and near to early Greek Christians. He is also a visible, human-like God not unlike so many Greek gods. To the Jews, a "viisble" and especially a man"who is in a form of God" as Paul says is completely alien and blasphemous on the other hand.

It is no wonder then that among the greatest early Christian theologians (Origen, Tertullian, Valentius, and others) Gnosticism prevailed. And it is telling that Marcion, a Gnostic, had such affinity for Paul.

I haven't figured out how it works, but it's very apparent gnosticism causes some sort of mental illness or brain damage

Most absolutists theories and dogmas tend to do that. And religion, by definition, is absolutist.

I can find no other reason why seemingly intelligent people have such a difficult time answering your precise and simple to understand questions

I don't know. Why don't you ask them? :) I wonder if they would answer yours?

Not only do they refuse to answer you, they feel compelled to attack you.

Yes, that is curious.

[kosta50]

All showered and winding down, pleasantly

Oh, more information than I needed to know...

[Alamo-Girl]

As someone once said, “if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

The natural man cannot discern spiritual matters at all. His worldview is a reduction of "all that there is" - e.g. physical reality - his hammer is sensory perception and reasoning.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

To the natural man, the Scriptures are just words of men like any other. But to the spiritual man, the words of God are spirit and life.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

Likewise, the natural man cannot discern Christ’s divinity revealed in Paul’s epistles. The spiritual man, on the other hand, sees it over and again, e.g.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:5-11

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. – Galatians 1:11-12

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Cor 10:1-4

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – I Cor 12:3

Jesus is Creator, not Creature.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. – John 1:10

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: - Colossians 1:16

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:1-3

The demons know what the natural man does not, that Jesus is the Son of God:

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? – Matt 8:29

And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. – Mark 1:23-24

And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. – Mark 1:34

And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. – Mark 3:11

And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. – Mark 5:7

And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. – Luke 4:41

When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. – Luke 8:28

Then again, the demons do not have a reduced worldview of "all that there is."

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. – James 2:19

God’s Name is I AM.

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

And to all . . . a good night.

[Quix]

LOLCATS PENGUIN PIC ON THIS PAGE:

http://icanhascheezburger.com/page/33/

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!

[Sir_Ed]

I go to a Calvary Chapel church in Oregon, and no...they don’t believe in divorce outside of adultery, they prohibit woman preachers and they are VERY pro-life, passing out copies of the Christian Voter’s Guide and leting us set up tables in back to gather signatures for Pro-Life petitions.

I can’t become Catholic because of their praying to saints, and because of their veneration of Mary above other female saints.

Other than that, it seems like a good church.

See ya’,

Ed

[boatbums]

Does someone need a hug? :o)

I think you can scroll past Joya's scripture posts just like anybody else can that is not interested in reading them. What was silly, my dear Kosta, was telling her NOT to post them and take up bandwidth because you weren't reading them. I was reading them and was edified by them as others were. They were germane to the subject matter, as well. I'm pretty certain that is probably why she posted them. And, no, I am very, very far from having any righteousness of myself. My righteousness is from God by faith in Jesus Christ.

[Alamo-Girl]

LOLOL!

[boatbums]

Bad Quix, bad, bad. He TOLD you not to post to him anymore! Did you fergit??? Oh...maybe it’s ok when he posts to you? Did y’all kiss and make up? ;o)

[Religion Moderator]

Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[Cvengr]

I had a great word study this weekend on the Greek word, EPIGINOSKO.

If you get a chance, check out how it is used in Mark 2:6-8 and again in Luke 5:21-22.

Both passages record the same event, wherein our Lord Christ Jesus, in his humanity, perceives or has a complete knowledge in his human spirit regarding the thinking of the Pharisees, then asks them to reason in their heart (not their mind).

Using the trichotomous anthropology of man being body, soul, and spirit, and the doctrine of kenosis, the comparison of these two verses speaks volumes as to how God has made man to think in adversity, including an example of the spiritual life of Christianity.

I had previously read some other doctrines describing Christian epistemology, where the Holy Spirit first makes information known to our human spirit, then to the mind in the soul as GNOSIS, then upon application of Bible doctrine, God the Holy Spirit would make that GNOSIS into EPIGNOSIS in the heart, another chamber of the soul, but these two verses helped amplify the thinking process in the Christian life.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for that beautiful insight, dear brother in Christ!

[kosta50]

Why must Jesus = God the Father?

Theologically (according to the Church) they are not one and the same but they are of equal divine essence or nature. The way the Church "explains" this has to do with the economy of our salvation.

Christian God reveals himself to the world as three distinct Realities (i.e. "Persons"), each performing a different function in the realization of our salvation.

It is only in the Protestant world that Trinity is said to be "understood." The Church treats God an ineffable Supreme Mystery underscoring that we don't know how God really is.

Fom an Orthodox site:

"According to the Orthodox teaching, God is always and forever unknowable and incomprehensible to creatures. Even in the eternal life of the Kingdom of God – heaven , as we say – men will never know the essence of God, that is, what God really is in Himself. "

All believers "know" (i.e. it has been revealed through faith) that God is not one Divine Hypostatic Reality but three. By "hypostatic" I mean free-standing, separate, individual, distinct. In the West, mainly due to a poor Latin translation,* and en even poorer English translation of Latin, these realities are erroneously known as "Persons."

*The Latin translation of Gr. hypostasis was for some strange reason persona, which means mask. Over the centuries English imported the Latin term and turned it into a new meaning — a person, and individual. The Greek term hypostasis basically means that which has its own foundation on which it stands, base. In other words a free-existing reality be it an object or something spiritual.

However, in all fairness, even the Greeks did not keep the meaning immutable, so they interpreted it to mean nature. This is how the Incarnation was coined to be the hypostatic union [of two natures]. The Greek word for essence, is ousia i.e. that which one has or is. Thus the Hypostases (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are said to be homoousious, that is of the same essence.

The Hypostases, all being divine, are one in essence, but distinct and unconfused relaities sucht that the Father is not the Son and not the Spirit, and the Son is not the Father and not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father and not the Son. The Father is unbegotten and without cause. The Son is eternally begotten and the Spirit eternally proceeds form the Father.

Does this mean we "understand" it now? I don't, because, fasicnaitng as it may be, it unfortunately still doesn't explain how can three distinct Persons be one and the same Being.

Most people to this day think and pray to the "heavenly Father" and in Jesus' name or through Jesus. The Eastern Church services, however, almost obsessively mention all three by name (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) rather than Father alone (except in the Lord's Prayer) or they simply mention (Holy) "God" or "Holy Trinity, one is Essence, and indivisible."

But neither this makes it any more conceivable because we know that if we take, for instance, three people, that is — three distinct individuals, we know they all have one (human) nature, but the common nature (humanity)doesn't obliterate the three individual beings (or human realities) and fuse them into one single, simple and indivisible being as is the the case with the Christian God.  How can something be three and simple and indivisible?  Above out pay grade as they say, but not necessarily true. 

Mat 1:20 says:...for that which is begotten in her is of [the] Holy Spirit. (Darby Translation)...Lord here is Kyrios again, but the angelic messenger is of Kyrios showing that Jesus is already God or a God.

First kyrios is simply master or lord, divine or human. It is a title appropriate for anyone who is of higher authority, whether it be a ruler, teacher, deity, or husband in the olden days, etc. The word Lord can apply to God but the word God can apply only to God. And only the Father is called God in both OT and NT (except John 20:28)*

Second, in the way the word was used (impersonally) in Judaism, "of the Holy Spirit" simply means by the power of God. It doesn't mean, as the LDS suggest, that the HS had conjugal relations with Mary. It simply means that God's power or if you will, magic, made it possible.

*the oldest John 20 manuscripts are P⁵ and P⁶⁶, the latter being early 3rd century (c. 200 AD) and the latter just 3rd century. The former is of western text type and the latter of mixed.

Whether the original John's manuscript had the verse 20:28 cannot be determined ("my Lord and my God"), or whether that was added at a latter date is impossible to determine at this time, but one thing is certain: John's Gosple is heavily interpolated by another author. In the words of a well renown Bible scholar, Robert Grant:

"Especially in the twentieth century, scholars have pointed to difficulties in the Gospel of John which suggest that (1) it is not in order as it stands, (2) it has been interpolated by an editor, and (3) either the editor or the author made use of earlier sources which can be detected."

I realize that some people do not want to hear this, but that's how it is. Sorry.

Why is monotheism a requirement for the attribute of God?

It must be to give legitimacy to the Christian claim of the OT God as well.

[kosta50]

As someone once said, “if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

That applies to to everyone, AG, don't you think? My "nail" was straight from the Bible, just like yours. It's just that you don't see my nail, yet you think it odd that I don't see yours. And I don't think it's the size. :)

[kosta50]

I think you can scroll past Joya's scripture posts just like anybody else can that is not interested in reading them. What was silly, my dear Kosta, was telling her NOT to post them and take up bandwidth because you weren't reading them

What is this? Joya, can you speak for yourself or do you need a "lawyer?"

Boatbums, she addressed her post 1150 to me, in response to my previous exchange with her. She also pinged "All." I was the primary recipient of the post, and I replied to her in post 1153 in my name and my name only, and I had every right to tell her that (as far as I was concerned because I replied in my name) she was wasting bandwidth and I wasn't going to read it.  It was my opinion and my decision. Am I allowed to express my opinion?  Or do I need to check with the principal?

I told her politely that if she wanted to say something to me she can do that in her own word. Nothing wrong with that. 

So, what does she do? Instead of responding to me, she pings (post 1154) the Religion Moderator (!) with "Please help me [sic] with post 1153"! Talk about drama. Please spare me.

[kosta50]

Didn’t think inquisitive form was personal, but I will heed your advice.