[HarleyD]

Sorry, I had to drop off for a while for several things that have been disturbing my repose. :O)

Your history on Baptist is interesting. I’m always interested in the history of these things. According to the history documented at your site, John Smyth was an Anglican Priest who formed the General Baptists and later left to form the Mennonite church because he disagreed with the doctrine he established.

First, Smyth insisted that true worship was from the heart and that any form of reading from a book in worship was an invention of sinful man. Prayer, singing and preaching had to be completely spontaneous. He went so far with this mentality that he would not allow the reading of the Bible during worship...Before his death, as seems characteristic of Smyth, he abandoned his Baptist views and began trying to bring his flock into the Mennonite church. Although he died before this happened, most of his congregation did join themselves with the Mennonite church after his death.

Thomas Helwys split from Smyth’s General Baptists and formed the Baptists:

Thomas Helwys...had a somewhat rocky relationship with Smyth, but after Smyth began moving away from the General Baptist belief, Helwys carried on the Baptist beginnings....group held to believer's baptism, they rejected Calvinism for a free will position...Even though some might see the modern-day Baptist movement in this group, we must understand that the beliefs of this group are far from the reformed heritage that shaped modern-day Baptist belief.

But neither of these two groups represents the doctrine of the Baptist church today. It is the Particular Baptists that form the core belief of Baptists.

As with the General Baptists, the Particular Baptists came out of the Separatist movement. This group emerged in the 1630's. This group was influenced by the great reformer John Calvin and held strongly to a "particular" atonement.[8] The first church was thought to be founded around 1633 or 1638, according to some. Regardless of this datum, however, it is clear that by 1644 the Particular Baptists numbered at least seven churches. One amazing point...is that in 1644 these churches...issue a confession of faith called the First London Confession of Faith. This confession preceded the widely known Westminster Confession of Faith by two years. As we will see, the present-day Baptist churches can be traced back to these early Baptists.

Please note that according to your article, the core belief of the Baptist Church spawned out of the Particular Baptists and was decidedly Calvinists. It was the Particular Baptists that wrote the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1644; the document that I referred to many posts ago. From the Particular Baptist grew the many Baptists including the Southern Baptists which finds their heritage in this Calvinist group. The non-Calvinist General Baptists became marginalized and exist only as a tiny fraction in the Baptist denomination.

I think that it is important to emphasize once again that it is implied in the article that the Particular Baptist placed a great deal of emphasis on the word of God from a Calvinistic perspective. Contrast this with the General Baptists (both Smyth and Helwys) de-emphasis of the word of God and diminutive status.

It doesn't surprise me that the General Baptist went so far as to 1) deny the reading of the word, 2) create doctrine that does not come from a consistent theology, and 3) ended up abscribing to some free will belief. Does any of this sound the LEAST bit familiar? (hint: RCC) The core believe of the Particular Baptist church, which would form the root of most Baptists-including SBC, was the sovereignty of God as documented in the LBC of 1644; not the free will of man. The "free will" of man is corrupt doctrine.

BTW-While I think the Westminster Confession of 1646 is more refined the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1644, it did in fact precedes the WCF.

[Mr Rogers]

It is a mistake to talk about Baptist beliefs in the way a hierarchical church practices them. Many denominations would draw up a list of beliefs, and then those who reject some of those beliefs would face punishment or expulsion.

One of the core baptist beliefs is that the congregation & individual are responsible for their beliefs. We have no ‘top down’ direction saying what churches (all independent) and individuals believe. Many baptists completely refuse any statement of belief, while others - such as the SBC - are very basic and limited.

The folks who left England and went to Holland were seeking to know what scripture taught them about church and doctrine. While there in the late 1500s and early 1600s, they were exposed to both anabaptists (which have been followed by the Mennonites) and the ideas of Arminius.

It isn’t surprising that they returned with a mixture of both, nor is it surprising that one of their founders then went further in the anabaptist/mennonite direction.

It also is a mistake to suggest that Calvin formed the current baptist theology. As a matter of church history, it is correct - but only in terms of founding. The SBC comes from a ‘reformed’ heritage - yet many, and I suspect most in the pews - reject Calvinism.

Our pastor is an example. He wanted Grudem’s Systematic Theology taught because that is what was used in the seminary...yet his preaching is more Arminian. One of the ladies in the class, who is about 70 and can’t remember not being a Baptist, had never heard of predestination before our class discussion. Another guy in the class is a semi-retired ordained Baptist preacher...and he was shocked to hear someone pushing limited atonement, unconditional election, etc. At one point he blurted out, “This makes no sense!”

So I’m not alone. Baptists believe, not what their seminaries teach, but what they hear preached and what they find reading the Bible on their own. For all the years I’ve been a member of SBC churches, I hadn’t read the “Baptist Faith & Message” until this fall. And it is written to allow both Calvinists and Arminians to accept it...

It also helps to remember that there is no requirement for an ordained Baptist preacher/pastor to go to seminary, or even to Bible college. Some of the pro-Calvin SBC articles I’ve read in the last few weeks have boasted that the SBC is returning to its Calvinist roots. If so, I would attribute it to more baptist preachers now going thru seminary, where they are told what Calvin’s views are on the meaning of election, or chosen, and never hear the other side. 100 years ago, most Baptist preachers just read their Bibles.

The splits in baptist denominations tend to come from differing views of scripture (inerrant, or just good advice). But as long as you can make a good case for what you believe from scripture, differing views are tolerated. After all, each congregation is totally independent. The function of the denomination is to pool resources for missions and seminaries.

You might also note that the large majority of baptist confessions are Calvinistic...the general baptists are more likely to reject ANY statement of doctrine. I attribute that to Calvin’s ideas about total control...or maybe the Arminians figure they need to be evangelizing, and they don’t have time for writing doctrinal statements!

After all, a good Calvinist is intellectually honest in saying that evangelism is only one of the commands of the Lord, and that no one will ever be lost due to less than enthusiastic missions work! “At a ministers’ meeting in 1786, Carey raised the question of whether it was the duty of all Christians to spread the Gospel throughout the world. J. R. Ryland, the father of John Ryland, is said to have retorted: “Young man, sit down; when God pleases to convert the heathen, he will do it without your aid and mine.”

Although that is now called hyper-calvinism, it seems to me like intellectually honest calvinism.

BTW - read an interesting article last night about how the Apostles, coming from Judaism, might have viewed terms like elect and chosen. I need to read it a few more times and think about it...if it still seems worthwhile, I’ll try to convert it to text and post it.