“...corporate ritualized impersonal prayers to everyone but God, no access to Christ except through Mary, a whole heirarchy of intermediaries and you need to keep them straight...Am I describing the Catholic church or not?”
You are describing some Catholics I’ve met, primarily while in the Philippines.
I have never met a Baptist who handled rattlesnakes, but I’m told they exist (I’ve handled them, but it was for a graduate level class in Herpetology). Doesn’t make it Baptist teaching.
If you wish to differ with the Catholic Church, it makes sense to differ on what they teach, not what can be found in some places.
I find ample stuff I can debate/discuss with them - the idea of ‘re-presenting’ Jesus in the Mass, the whole idea of priests, indulgences, Purgatory, etc.
I very strongly disagree with the whole mariology stuff, but I’ve started to leave out debating it because I find it is a highly emotional area. A Greek Orthodox, no longer posting here because of the beginning of this thread, wrote me in private and explained how he FELT when the subject of Mary came up - and highly emotional areas don’t enlighten anyone. I will sometimes still post extracts of papal announcements as examples that make most Protestants want to barf...the emotion is on both sides.
I find prayers to deceased saints bizarre, but I don’t lump them in with some nominal Catholics I’ve met who wouldn’t drive a car that didn’t have a statue of some saint on the dashboard.
At some point, we need to let others describe their beliefs to us rather than telling them what they believe. I resent it when told I believe in universal salvation, or that man is basically good, that we earn our salvation, etc - particularly when I have expressly denied those beliefs.
And at some point, we need to remember what Paul wrote in Romans:
1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. - Romans 14
I am not the judge of Catholics. The Pope is not my judge. God will judge both of us, and all others. I have zero belief in transubstantiation, but God will judge me on that - to my approval, perhaps, or perhaps to my condemnation. I reject mariology utterly, and God will judge me on that - to my approval or rebuke.
But there is no condemnation is Christ. Where I err, God has forgiven me. If I have tears from where I’ve erred, God will dry my eyes and welcome me home. I want to do the very best I can for God’s service, and to take his word in my life seriously, and encourage others in any way I can - but I will not judge them. And I have to accept that when they say they believe X & Z, that MEANS X & Z - not Y or T.
I will & have cheerfully explained why I think Catholics are misinterpreting scripture. But I will not hate them. I will not knowingly call them names they resent. I will not tell them they believe X if they say they believe Y. And I will not do Google searches of graveyard images in hopes of finding something to use in attack.
I’m not a limited atonement kind of guy. I believe Jesus died to save every person who believes in him. I believe Jesus loves Catholics more than I can imagine, and he calls me to do so as well. I believe the thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved, not by his doctrine, but by meeting Jesus.
So if the Church has bad doctrine about who Jesus is, then there is no compromise. Mormons believe in multiple gods. JWs believe Jesus wasn’t God. But even there, in my younger days, living in Utah, I sometimes spent 4-5 hours talking to Mormons, and not about funny underwear. I have yet to see anyone insulted to Christ!
Thanks very much for that post. Very well said.