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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl; HarleyD
"The fifth canon of the Remonstrance says that man can lose that judgment of innocent or “rightness”."

Article 5

That those who are in­corporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well un­derstood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was deliv­ered them, of losing a good conscience, of be­coming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, be­fore we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.

There are certainly scriptures that cast doubt on the question. "4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned." - Hebrews 6

I haven't studied it, and wouldn't want to commit one way or the other. Neither did the Arminians of 1610...

8,000 posted on 02/01/2010 7:34:37 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl; HarleyD

“Though I here openly and ingenuously affirm, I never taught that a true believer can, either totally or finally fall away from the faith, and perish; yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such a kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding. On the other hand, certain passages are produced for the contrary doctrine [of unconditional perseverance] which are worthy of much consideration.” - Jacobus Arminius


8,001 posted on 02/01/2010 7:38:00 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers

“There are certainly scriptures that cast doubt on the question.”

Nowhere in that particular passage, Hebrews 6:4-6, does the writer say they have trusted Jesus for salvation. They have been “enlightened” and “tasted” but there is no evidence of commitment. The church is full of people who will say “Lord”, “Lord”; moths to the flame of the gospel but will fall away because underneath the veneer is a stoney heart or the cares of this world choke the light of the gospel.


8,003 posted on 02/01/2010 7:47:14 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: Mr Rogers

My take, if you’re interested, is that once a person comes to true faith in Jesus Christ as savior and they are sealed with the Holy Spirit “until the day of redemption”, they cannot become unsaved, un-born again, un-adopted, unfilled with the HS. That would mean God would cast his child and the Holy Spirit into hell. That’s why I don’t ever try to judge whether or not someone is saved. I cannot see their heart, only God can. Also, since we are saved by grace, we are kept saved by that same grace. If we could lose our salvation because of sin, that would be no different than saying we are saved by not sinning, or saved by good works. That is just not what grace is all about.

Those verses from Hebrews can be read as saying that since Christ cannot be sacrificed again, one cannot re-repent and be reborn again, EVER. No second chances, you blow it once it is IMPOSSIBLE to return again to the former state and start over. If this is what is meant, then the parable of the prodigal son would have ended with him staying with the pigs. I think instead this means we can never go that far because we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, if we are truly his. God is a God of second chances, and thirds, and fourths, and...


8,006 posted on 02/01/2010 9:11:07 PM PST by boatbums
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To: Mr Rogers; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Alamo-Girl
If you believe in "free will" then it doesn't surprise me to see you believe one can lose their salvation. You start down this path and that is where you head. Then you will feel the need to work for your salvation. Then you will feel that you are not doing enough for your salvation so you'll get frustrated. Finally you may just give up.

We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. We are either children of the devil or children of God. We are either children of darkness or children of the light. We are either under the law or under grace. We are either dead to sin or alive to Christ. The list goes on and on. You're either one or the other. You cannot lose your salvation because it is depended on God and He has sealed us with the Holy Spirit just as He sealed the ark against the rain.

It is disappointing that you feel a need to listen to the confused doctrine of Arminius who admitted he couldn't understand various passages of scripture. As for the verse in Hebrews 6, if one were to read the book of Hebrews in context, they will find it is an evangelistic call to the Jews (hence the name "Hebrews"). The Jews have tasted of all the sweet things of God. They have the laws and traditions. They cannot be enlightened to the truth again if they reject the call of Christ (just as no one can). It is an evagelistic call-not that one can fall away from the faith.

And before I hear-"AH! HA! They can make a choice", please remember that we are suppose to "Preach like an Arminian but believe like a Calvinist." as Charles Spurgeon once stated. For the Jews that the Hebrew writer was addressing..."...and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Those who were appointed to eternal life will believe. God will open up their ears and eyes.

I would suggest reading John MacArthur's commentary on Hebrew which does an excellent analysis of the book. Far better than Arminius.

8,014 posted on 02/02/2010 12:34:59 AM PST by HarleyD
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