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To: Mad Dawg

Your rejection of Ps. 65:2 is what is “bogus twice”. First, that was merely one of multitudes of statements that testifies that God is the only one who can hear prayer and answer it, bandwidth unlimited. Here is a compilation which includes every prayer to Heaven i found in the Bible, http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/BIBLE-PRAYERS.html, and if you can find praying to someone else, let me known.

Secondly, Psalms such as this can indeed teach doctrine, as the Lord and Peter and N.T. clearly evidences. (Mat_22:42-45; Act 2:34; Psa_110:1; Heb. 1:10; Psa_102:25-27)

>He hears prayer, maybe others do to. to argue from that text to hearing requests is incommunicable is weak. There is no explicit statement that the ‘departed’ can hear prayers.<

What is weak are such attempts to make an argument from silence, that if something as this is not explicitly disallowed it may be sanctioned. The fact are, whenever instructions on believers prayer are given, or examples thereof, then God is the object. When Jesus taught His disciples to pray, He said, “Our Father which art in heaven.

You postulate “maybe others do it”, but in reality you must believe they do, yet only God is set forth as the object of prayer, and as this is such a fundamental holy practice, surely the Holy Spirit would not fail to provide at least one example of praying to a departed saint, instead of only to God, and encouraging believers to pour out their heart to Him, etc. You simply have no real substantiation for your position, and to overcome the weight to the contrary.

One might as well sanctioning consensual (if you die first I’ll have you for dinner) cannibalism as a practice, as it is never explicitly doctrinally condemned, though animals are set forth as lawful food. But even then there may be an exception due to need, while we have zero need to pray to anyone else in heaven, esp. after what Heb. 4:14-16 testifies, and the Bible examples, nor is the ability to meet the need evidenced to be the same.

>There are two reasons for people not making some things explicit. One is that they’re not true. The other is that they’re not only true but so widely known that they’re not thought to need saying<

So widely known that out of the multitudinous prayers of the Bible by believers not one is directed to anyone in heaven (pagans however, did), while the Father is set forth as the object, and Christ the all-sufficient intercessor?

>To us in full communion who have thought deeply on what it means to be united by the Spirit in one body, it goes without saying.<

To those who teach for doctrines the practices of men, that is. The aspect of “full communion” in praying to the departed honestly finds its support in the occult, and such is utterly unnecessary for those who are born again.

Moreover, asking prayer on earth is restricted to physical means, not ESP., while only God in heaven is seen able to hear prayers of the spirit. And the Spirit of God prays to God as well.

>There is ample demonstration in the OT that the “queen mother” has a position of honor and respect.<

And of this you extrapolate not only Mary interceding in heaven (which possibility itself is not contested with here) but that she can hear and answer billions of prayers. But if you will resort to such, then know that should be a discouragement to such motherly intercession, as she not only sought to help an usurper, but the answer she obtained resulted in his death. That type of intercession one should not want. (1Kg. 2:1-25)

>His progenitors honored their mothers highly.

What is extrapolated out of “honor” is the problem, while He said, “whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (Mat 12:50) And doing this will was also consistent with what was written, and so prayer by Him and in the N.T. was made to God alone.

“we settled the Trinity in a few centuries.<

If you know you know history, early father required conformity to the Bible, and the only way to reconcile the Bible with itself is the Trinity, and such fundamental doctrines, and who to pray to is, are easily substantiated Scripturally. However, praying to saints cannot be reconciled with or substantiated by the Bible, and the manner of argumentation that is resorted to in seeking to defend this practice puts all doctrine in danger.

(Rom 10:13) “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

As for Nograyzone, the above text applies, as it is speaking of YHWH in Joel 2:32, but here is applies to Christ. See also http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/DEITYofCHRIST.html

As for Arminians and Calvinists, they can can argue about predestination, which is a deep issue, but both camps can agree on how to be saved, and thus Whitefield and Wesley both labored together effectually in preaching the gospel. And both helped stave off false gospels.


7,966 posted on 02/01/2010 3:03:22 PM PST by daniel1212 (Pro 25:13 As the cold of snow in the time of harvest, so is a faithful messenger [frozen chosen])
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To: daniel1212; Mad Dawg

Psalm 73:25-30
Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


7,991 posted on 02/01/2010 6:39:55 PM PST by boatbums
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