“”So, was this great sin against Christ the will of God? Of course it was.””
No sin is the will of God!If God willed sin to happen than God would be the creator of Sin and the Crucifixion would mean that man followed the will of God by sinning.Thus,if man’s sin is God’s will it would be an act of love because following God’s will is love thus making sin an act of LOVE, sin is NOT love,it’s an imperfection against God’s will. Again, God can not will evil(sin) or evil would be in his essence- that is perfection and love.
Since we know that... “God is light, and there is no darkness in Him” (I John i, 5) and... “I will show thee all good” (Exod. xxxiii, 19).
“There came to me all good things along with it” (Wisd. vii, 11).
Try thinking of it this way and you we understand that God IS LOVE and perfection...
Adam and Eve’s sin ,the crucifixion,Moses in the desert,sin that will occur tomorrow etc.. is all one NOW to God who does NOT CHANGE(James 1:17) and saw all of our free choices to sin as ONE event that God’s love instantaneously conquers evil in the one NOW,thus,God is NEVER the cause of sin and man has a free will to sin,thus man creates his own sin that Christ suffered for out of love and extreme humility for us on the Cross in an extreme act of Love
James 1:17-”Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is NO CHANGE, nor shadow of alteration.” James 1:17
God is not the cause of sin,EVER,Forest K
From Aquinas....
That God is Cause of Sin to no Man
THOUGH there are some sinners whom God does not convert to Himself, but leaves them in their sins according to their deserts, still He does not induce them to sin.
1. Men sin by deviating from God their last end. But as every agent acts to its own proper and befitting end, it is impossible for God’s action to avert any from their ultimate end in God.
2. Good cannot be the cause of evil, nor God the cause of sin.
3. All the wisdom and goodness of man is derived from the wisdom and goodness of God, being a likeness thereof. But it is repugnant to the wisdom and goodness of man to make any one to sin: therefore much more to divine wisdom and goodness.
4. A fault always arises from some defect of the proximate agent, not from any defect of the prime agent. Thus the fault of limping comes from some defect of the shin-bone, not from the locomotor power, from which power however is whatever perfection of movement appears in the limping. But the proximate agent of human sin is the will. The sinful defect then is from the will of man, not from God, who is the prime agent, of whom however is whatever point of perfect action appears in the act of sin.*
Hence it is said: Say not, He himself hath led me astray: for he hath no use for sinful men: He hath commanded none to do impiously, and he hath not given to any man license to sin (Ecclus xv, 12, 21): Let none, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God: for God tempteth no man to evil (James i, 13).
Still there are passages of Scripture, from which it might seem that God is to some men the cause of sin. Thus it is said: I have hardened the heart of Pharaoh and his servants (Exod. x, 1): Blind the heart of this people, and make its ears dull, and close its eyes, lest perchance it see with its eyes, and be converted, and I heal it: Thou hast made us wander from thy ways: Thou hast hardened our heart, that we should not fear thee (Isai. vi, 10: lxiii, 17): God delivered them over to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not seemly (Rom. i, 28). All these passages are to be understood as meaning that God does not bestow on some the help for avoiding sin which He bestows on others. This help is not merely the infusion of grace, but also an exterior guardianship, whereby the occasions of sin are providentially removed from a man’s path. God also aids man against sin by the natural light of reason, and other natural goods that He bestows on man.* When then He withdraws these aids from some, as their conduct deserves that he should, according to the exigency of His justice, He is said to harden them, or to blind them.
““”So, was this great sin against Christ the will of God? Of course it was.”” / No sin is the will of God!”
I hope st s will forgive me for saying it feels a bit odd to be strongly in agreement! We’ve argued so much for so long...
Yet I strongly agree. I think of this passage:
“33 Peter answered him, “Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away.” 34 Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” 35 Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same...73After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, “Certainly you too are one of them, for your accent betrays you.” 74Then he began to invoke a curse on himself and to swear, “I do not know the man.” And immediately the rooster crowed. 75And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.”
Jesus told Peter he would betray him, denying him three times. Peter did so.
“And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and rejoiced that he had done God’s will and done it perfectly.”
Umm....no.
“And he went out and wept bitterly.” Jesus knew what would happen, but he did not make it happen. Every time we sin, we defy God. It doesn’t upset God’s plan, but it does upset God...so to speak. It grieves God when we sin. We act outside his will, while his purposes remain unchanged and unstoppable.
We should weep at our sin, not rejoice. Sin isn’t God’s will.
No sin is the will of God!If God willed sin to happen than God would be the creator of Sin and the Crucifixion would mean that man followed the will of God by sinning. ...
Then when Jesus prayed to have the cup taken away, what was God's answer? Was it "No Jesus, I'm going to let man decide"? :) Of course not. Jesus also prayed for the will of the Father to be done, so the answer to Jesus was "Yes My Son, I will do my will in this matter and you will be crucified."
In addition, if God's will had nothing to do with the crucifixion, then how do you think about the men who demanded and carried out the crucifixion of Christ? If it was their will that was controlling then should we not be everlastingly grateful to them for killing Christ? After all, where would we be if that had never happened? We would all be damned. That kind of puts us in an uncomfortable place I think.
Thus,if man’s sin is God’s will it would be an act of love because following God’s will is love thus making sin an act of LOVE, sin is NOT love,it’s an imperfection against God’s will.
Well, God letting man sin against Him by design sure WAS an act of love. Did man REALLY arrange everything concerning the crucifixion and it was just our good fortune that God decided to cooperate? ---- And those who were the guilty were not following God because they did not have the requisite knowledge. They were not "obeying", they were sinning on their own, which was in accordance with God's plan.
Adam and Eve’s sin ,the crucifixion,Moses in the desert,sin that will occur tomorrow etc.. is all one NOW to God who does NOT CHANGE(James 1:17) and saw all of our free choices to sin as ONE event that God’s love instantaneously conquers evil in the one NOW,thus,God is NEVER the cause of sin and man has a free will to sin,thus man creates his own sin that Christ suffered for out of love and extreme humility for us on the Cross in an extreme act of Love
Is the "one now" idea any different than regular omniscience? If it is basically the same thing, then it does not solve the luck problem in that our eternal salvation was completely dependent on the chance that men would sin as they did, killing Christ. If God is truly a purely reactionary God, who rolled with all the punches thrown at Him simultaneously in the one now, and just accepted history as it was dictated to Him by man, then we really owe an eternal debt of gratitude to the murderers who killed Him, don't we? They were the ones in charge and God did not interfere.
James 1:17-”Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is NO CHANGE, nor shadow of alteration.” James 1:17
But if God wasn't in charge of the crucifixion then we cannot say that gift was only from Him. God's gift would only be in agreeing to man's gift (killing Him). ALL of these types of verses evaporate if we say that man was in charge and it was man's will that governed over the happening of the crucifixion. I don't see how God's omniscience would make any difference. It matters what God did or did not do, or willed or did not will.
From Aquinas.... That God is Cause of Sin to no Man THOUGH there are some sinners whom God does not convert to Himself, but leaves them in their sins according to their deserts, still He does not induce them to sin.
I totally agree, although I would use the word "author" instead of "cause" just to be more precise. Causation can get muddled depending on how it is used. IMO, "authoring" is clearer.
1. Men sin by deviating from God their last end. But as every agent acts to its own proper and befitting end, it is impossible for God’s action to avert any from their ultimate end in God.
Different men have different ultimate ends in God, so I'm not sure what this means. I would agree that God does nothing to change where He already knows each of us is going to end up, if that's what he means.
2. Good cannot be the cause of evil, nor God the cause of sin.
Author instead of cause, yes.
3. All the wisdom and goodness of man is derived from the wisdom and goodness of God, being a likeness thereof. But it is repugnant to the wisdom and goodness of man to make any one to sin: therefore much more to divine wisdom and goodness.
If we are talking post-Adam then I would have to disagree since there is no wisdom and goodness in the fallen man. (Rom. 3:12 - All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”) However, I would fully agree that God does not make anyone sin (hence "author" beats "cause"). God zaps no one with evil juice, forcing him to then commit some "desired" sin.
4. A fault always arises from some defect of the proximate agent, not from any defect of the prime agent. Thus the fault of limping comes from some defect of the shin-bone, not from the locomotor power, from which power however is whatever perfection of movement appears in the limping. But the proximate agent of human sin is the will. The sinful defect then is from the will of man, not from God, who is the prime agent, of whom however is whatever point of perfect action appears in the act of sin.*
Yes, the sinful defect is in the sinful nature, not from God. God has dominion and power over everything, however, and He commonly and by design uses the sins of sinners to further His purposes.
Hence it is said: Say not, He himself hath led me astray: for he hath no use for sinful men: He hath commanded none to do impiously, and he hath not given to any man license to sin (Ecclus xv, 12, 21): Let none, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God: for God tempteth no man to evil (James i, 13).
While scripture is crystal clear that God has use of sinful men (e.g., Gen. 50:20), I would agree that God commands no one to sin, and has given no one license to sin. I also agree that God tempts no man.
...... All these passages are to be understood as meaning that God does not bestow on some the help for avoiding sin which He bestows on others. ......
YES, this is precisely the mechanism I am employing to explain my position here. God withdrew from the Jews and the Romans to the point that crucifixion was a certainty, all in accordance with God's ordained plan from the foundation of the world, or in the one now.
Overall, I'd say these passages from Aquinas aren't half bad at all. :)