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To: Mr Rogers; Forest Keeper; esquirette; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; HarleyD; wmfights; RnMomof7
“I understand that. However, I’m waiting to see some scriptural evidence that we are born again first, and then receive faith and believing as a gift.”

Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” John 3:3. Regeneration is a New Testament concept that grew out of a parable teaching that Jesus used to show Nicodemus the inwardness and depth of the change that even religious Jews must undergo if they were ever to see and enter the kingdom of God, and so have eternal life (John 3:3-15). Jesus pictured the change as being “born again.” Christians believed that the living God Himself had entered into history, had encountered man in his innermost being, and had recreated him. This concept was a unique feature of Christianity. By repeating the initial word, Jesus gave special significance to His statement in John :: “Amen, amen, I say to you; unless one is begotten from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Jesus is here demanding from Nicodemus a thoroughgoing change of life, a “turning around,” as the precondition of seeing the kingdom of God—the very thing that Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel, found it difficult to do. Jesus’ point throughout is that there is no exercise of faith in himself as the supernatural Savior, no repentance, and no true discipleship apart from this new birth.

The concept is of God renovating the heart; the core of a person’s being, by implanting a new principle of desire, purpose, and action, a dynamic that finds expression in positive response to the gospel and its Christ. The ordinary context of new birth is one of effectual calling—that is, confrontation with the gospel and illumination as to its truth and significance as a message from God to oneself. Regeneration is monergistic: that is, entirely the work of God the Holy Spirit and is always the decisive element in effectual calling. It raises the elect among the spiritually dead to new life in Christ (Eph. 2:1-10).

This passage is a continuation of Eph. 1:19-20 with 21-23 being a parenthesis. “And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.....and you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;...”

Regeneration is a transition from spiritual death to spiritual life and conscious, intentional, active faith in Christ is its immediate fruit, not its immediate cause. Augustine called it “prevenient” grace, the grace that precedes our outgoings of heart toward God. There is the same emphasis on a new beginning: “Blessed be the God, . . who . begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” 1 Pet.1:3; cf. 1 Pet.1:23. Elsewhere John teaches that belief in the Incarnation and Atonement, with faith and love, holiness and righteousness, is the fruit and proof that one is born of God (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4). There is no conversion without new birth.

6,514 posted on 01/25/2010 6:15:31 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; esquirette; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; wmfights; RnMomof7; Mad Dawg; ...

When Jesus was teaching about the new birth to Nicodemus, what did he say?

“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” - v 5,6

Nicodemus asks, “How can these things be?”

Jesus replies, “And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.” v 13-18

How can someone be born again? Not by man’s power, for he cannot raise his arm to heaven. But God, taking the initiative, seeking those who did not seek him, came down.

And now, “as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.”

The reference is to Numbers 21:

“6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.”

Taken at face value, that means that no one can save himself. But if we would be healed or saved, we must look to the one lifted up, Jesus Christ, just as the ancient Jews had to look to the serpent lifted up.

What else do we find? When Jesus healed:

Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Luk 8:50 But Jesus on hearing this answered him, “Do not fear; only believe, and she will be well.”
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.

Does Jesus give them faith? No, he says “I found such faith”!

In the verses with believe (pisteuo, which occurs 264 times in 220 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV), I didn’t find Jesus GIVING belief. There are verses where he healed without mentioning belief. There are verse where “he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them. And he marveled because of their unbelief.” - Mark 6

Nor have I found a verse indicating God gives us faith in him AFTER we are born again - that being born again happens prior to our belief. There are a ton indicating we need to believe, but I haven’t seen much indicating that belief follows conversion.

“And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” - Acts 10

“everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name”

Now surely, if predestination was the heart of the Gospel, Peter would have preached it correctly. “If God calls you, you will have belief and be saved!”

“30Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.” - Acts 16

Surely Paul knew the Gospel. “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31And they said, “Do not blaspheme the sovereign God! Are you a Pelagian? Be saved, if God permits it, you and your household, and you will believe.”

Ummm...no. “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Calvin was wrong. “Regeneration is [NOT] monergistic: that is, entirely the work of God the Holy Spirit [independent of the individual’s belief] and is always the decisive element in effectual calling.”

What do we find in Ephesians 1? You brought it up: “19and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places”

His power toward us who believe. I suppose someone COULD claim that means his power comes first, and then we believe - but that is NOT the plain sense of the passage. His power is exercise to us who believe.

Lets look at “1 Pet.1:3; cf. 1 Pet.1:23”:

“3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance that is imperishable” That does not suggest we receive faith as a result of conversion. God caused me to born again: “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” He gave it, I did not take it. But he gave it in his sovereign will “to all who did receive him, who believed in his name”.

” 22Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;”

Ummm...”Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth” What is that? We purify our souls? And why do we do this? “since you have been born again...through the living and abiding word of God”. Sounds like “13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?”

And what does else does it say in Romans 10?

“8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Tell me that means we passively await his rescue. For if the heart is justified, you will believe? No, that isn’t it.

“Elsewhere John teaches that belief in the Incarnation and Atonement, with faith and love, holiness and righteousness, is the fruit and proof that one is born of God (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4). There is no conversion without new birth.”

“29If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.”

Yep. Everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him.

“9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.”

True, true. We may stumble, but we do not wallow and rejoice in it!

“7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.”

Yep! True, true. You must be born again.

” 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him...3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.”

Yep! True, true. “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God”. Not everyone who agrees with Mr Rogers on doctrine. Nor everyone who agrees with Mad Dawg on doctrine. Nor everyone who agrees with Petronski or annalex on doctrine. Not even all who agree with Dr E, but “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God”! I’ve got a hunch that Baptists won’t be alone in Heaven...

Calvin writes:

1 Whosoever believeth He confirms by another reason, that faith and brotherly love are united; for since God regenerates us by faith he must necessarily be loved by us as a Father; and this love embraces all his children. Then faith cannot be separated from love.

The first truth is, that all born of God, believe that Jesus is the Christ; where, again, you see that Christ alone is set forth as the object of faith, as in him it finds righteousness, life, and every blessing that can be desired, and God in all that he is. 8989 Literally, “and the whole God — totum Deum.” — Ed. Hence the only true way of believing is when we direct our minds to him. Besides, to believe that he is the Christ, is to hope from him all those things which have been promised as to the Messiah.

Nor is the title, Christ, given him here without reason, for it designates the office to which he was appointed by the Father. As, under the Law, the full restoration of all things, righteousness and happiness, were promised through the Messiah; so at this day the whole of this is more clearly set forth in the gospel. Then Jesus cannot be received as Christ, except salvation be sought from him, since for this end he was sent by the Father, and is daily offered to us.

Hence the Apostle declares that all they who really believe have been born of God; for faith is far above the reach of the human mind, so that we must be drawn to Christ by our heavenly Father; for not any of us can ascend to him by his own strength. And this is what the Apostle teaches us in his Gospel, when he says, that those who believe in the name of the only-begotten, were not born of blood nor of the flesh. (John 1:13.) And Paul says, that we are endued, not with the spirit of this world, but with the Spirit that is from God, that we may know the things given us by him. (1 Corinthians 2:12.) For eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor the mind conceived, the reward laid up for those who love God; but the Spirit alone penetrates into this mystery. And further, as Christ is given to us for sanctification, and brings with it the Spirit of regeneration, in short, as he unites us to his own body, it is also another reason why no one can have faith, except he is born of God.”

Up until the last sentence, I agree. And I agree with it, if it means that no one can have faith unless God reveals himself. I agree with John: “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God”. Now, if there is something in the Greek that says it means we must be born again before we believe...well, I don’t see it in the English translation. Young’s has it, “1Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten”, which I think supports me - look around you, children, the ones you see who believe Jesus is the Christ are the ones who have been born again. For a warning against false prophets, that seems a pretty fair rendering.

But I’ll leave it to those who know Greek to say if there is more hiding that I don’t see in the English.


6,547 posted on 01/25/2010 9:10:21 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: blue-duncan
Christians believed that the living God Himself had entered into history, had encountered man in his innermost being, and had recreated him. This concept was a unique feature of Christianity. By repeating the initial word, Jesus gave special significance to His statement in John :: ?Amen, amen, I say to you; unless one is begotten from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.? Jesus is here demanding from Nicodemus a thoroughgoing change of life, a ?turning around,? as the precondition of seeing the kingdom of God?the very thing that Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel, found it difficult to do. Jesus? point throughout is that there is no exercise of faith in himself as the supernatural Savior, no repentance, and no true discipleship apart from this new birth.

The concept is of God renovating the heart; the core of a person?s being, by implanting a new principle of desire, purpose, and action, a dynamic that finds expression in positive response to the gospel and its Christ. The ordinary context of new birth is one of effectual calling?that is, confrontation with the gospel and illumination as to its truth and significance as a message from God to oneself. Regeneration is monergistic: that is, entirely the work of God the Holy Spirit and is always the decisive element in effectual calling. It raises the elect among the spiritually dead to new life in Christ (Eph. 2:1-10).

Regeneration is a transition from spiritual death to spiritual life and conscious, intentional, active faith in Christ is its immediate fruit, not its immediate cause...

Amen!!!

6,698 posted on 01/26/2010 11:53:51 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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