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To: Petronski
The if you study the Catholic Church doctrine as defined by the Church, you will have noticed that Christ does not "atone" for your sins. Christ is an example. Please consider the following from your website:

You'll notice there is nothing in this description of our Lord Jesus having the sins of the world placed upon Him and atoning for our sins. Nor is there anything about our Lord paying our penalty.

What your Catachism does state is that "by His death He liberates us". Christ is raised so that we too might be raised. Wrong. God only recognizes the finish work of Christ-not ours. But this aligns with the Eastern Orthodox position.

It should be pointed out this is "new" teaching. The early church fathers never believed this. I'll stand by what I've stated, the Catholic Church does not believe in the atonement for sin any more. Your Catachism proves it.

So I accept your apology for saying I'm "slandering" the Catholic faith. I would suggest Catholics become more accutely aware of their Catachism before they make such accusations.

6,365 posted on 01/24/2010 4:04:31 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
You'll notice there is nothing in this description of our Lord Jesus having the sins of the world placed upon Him and atoning for our sins. Nor is there anything about our Lord paying our penalty.

There is nothing in paragraphs 653 or 654 on that topic.

What your Catachism [sic] does state is that "by His death He liberates us".

What paragraphs 653 and/or 654 does state...

But, beyond the two paragraphs you quote, there is this (just as an example):

Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37
Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1741

So I accept your apology for saying I'm "slandering" the Catholic faith.

I made no such apology. None will be forthcoming.

I would suggest Catholics become more accutely aware of their Catachism before they make such accusations.

I would suggest you start at CCC paragraph 1 and continue to paragraph 2865 before you lecture Catholics on our Catechism.

6,368 posted on 01/24/2010 4:15:36 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: HarleyD
As for you slandering the Catholic Church, let's review your statement:
a) Mary to be co-equal with the Son
b) that she imparts grace
c) that the atonement is nothing more than Christ showing us how to live
d) that the inspired works in scripture is no more than any other writings
e) or that they actually do worship (yes, not venerate) relics and Mary
You have attempted to excuse one of these, though you failed.
6,369 posted on 01/24/2010 4:29:13 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: HarleyD; Petronski
You'll notice there is nothing in this description of our Lord Jesus having the sins of the world placed upon Him and atoning for our sins. Nor is there anything about our Lord paying our penalty.
614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices. First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.

615 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous." By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who "makes himself an offering for sin", when "he bore the sin of many", and who "shall make many to be accounted righteous", for "he shall bear their iniquities". Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.

616 It is love "to the end" that confers on Christ's sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as ,atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life. Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died." No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

1505 On the cross Christtook upon himself the whole weight of evil ....

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.

I'll stand by what I've stated, the Catholic Church does not believe in the atonement for sin any more. Your Catachism proves it.

Whom should I believe, you or my lying eyes?

Nobody can say everything at once. One cannot conclude that because the catechism doesn't say something in one place it doesn't say it in any place.

6,372 posted on 01/24/2010 5:05:57 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: HarleyD

Sometimes it does seem like many Roman Catholics et al

know about as much about Roman Catholicism etc

as many Mormons know about Mormanism.


6,385 posted on 01/24/2010 6:18:26 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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