I wrote:
You might recall that one of them was posted to bolster a claim that a certain quote could be found on "thousands" of Catholic websites, only later did we discover that the quote was actually a total fabrication.
To which you responded:
No, I don't recall that. You've tossed out this accusation before with no evidence. Kindly substantiate it now.
Actually, to be an actual accusation I need to accuse a specific person or defined group.
But sure, I will be happy to post this little reminder (it is worth noting that the photo offered as "proof" has NEVER been validated and is totally inconsistent with verifiable photos of the basilica in question):
Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin
To: wagglebee
Seems pretty clear to me. To concoct all this folly about “Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep” should be so anathema to a Christian that they flee from it.
449 posted on Tuesday, October 06, 2009 7:41:35 PM by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 448 | View Replies | Report Abuse]
_________________________________________________________
To: Dr. Eckleburg
To concoct all this folly about “Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep” should be so anathema to a Christian that they flee from it.
For the record, that WOULD be an anathema. Who told you such nonsense? It certainly didn't come from the Catholic Church.
451 posted on 10/06/2009 4:51:45 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 449 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: wagglebee
For the record, that WOULD be an anathema. Who told you such nonsense? It certainly didn't come from the Catholic Church.
It came from THOUSANDS of Roman Catholic websites which say a whole lot more than that about Mary's supernatural powers.
It came from the RCC catechism which has been posted dozens of times by me and others to show the RCC considers Mary to be an active participant in Christ's redemption of the world.
It came from the words of John Paul II who blatantly called Mary a "Co-Redeemer."
It came from Padre Pio who is about to be canonized who stresses over and over that Mary is a "Co-Redeemer" and a "Dispensatrix of all graces."
If these sentences bother you, good! They should. Work to rid your church of this idolatry. God will be glorified as Mary decreases from your sight and Christ appears.
452 posted on 10/06/2009 5:02:18 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 451 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: Dr. Eckleburg
It came from THOUSANDS of Roman Catholic websites which say a whole lot more than that about Mary's supernatural powers.
Then post a link with those exact words since you are attributing it as a direct quote.
453 posted on 10/06/2009 5:05:12 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 452 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: wagglebee
“Then post a link with those exact words since you are attributing it as a direct quote.”
Here. Try this link, one among thousands.
http://www.mgardens.org/HSMGP.html
~~”Thus, filled with divine grace and raised to union with God, Mary, in her immaculate purity, utter humility, and total fidelity to God’s word, prompting and bestowal, shared in the divine procreativity in her Divine Maternity of God the Son incarnate as Jesus; SHARED AS CO-REDEEMER IN JESUS’ SACRIFICIAL REDEMPTION OF THE WORLD; and SHARES, AS UNIVERSAL MEDIATRIX, in his sending of the divine grace, light, wisdom and power of God, the Holy Spirit to the world - for its culmination in the building and coming of God’s Peaceable Kingdom, and its transfiguration on the last day, with the universal resurrection, into the eternal New Heaven and New Earth.”~~
This is what is being taught to Roman Catholics and believed by Roman Catholics. Repent.
456 posted on 10/06/2009 5:18:24 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 453 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: Dr. Eckleburg
First of all that is someone's website, it IS NOT in any way a Church website.
This is what you attributed as a direct quote:
“Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep”
If you are purporting it to be a factual teaching of the Church it is up to YOU to provide proof of it.
458 posted on 10/06/2009 5:23:09 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 456 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: wagglebee
Yours is the all-too-common response. You asked for a link and I gave it to you from a Catholic website. But it's not enough.
I have also linked you to soon-to-be-sainted Padre Pio's idiotic rantings about a hundred times. For the sake of clarity, HERE IT IS AGAIN...
PADRE PIO AND THE MOTHER CO-REDEMPTRIX
"...according to the teaching of St. Pio of Pietrelcina, we should be eternally grateful to "our dear Coredemptrix" and to our "Mediatrix and Dispensatrix of all graces.""
And of course, there are the words of your pope as outlined in this piece by a Roman Catholic scholar...
WHY NOW IS THE TIME FOR A DOGMA OF MARY
The Pope's new apostolic letter "Rosarium Virginis Mariae" (The Rosary of the Virgin Mary) has rekindled interest in Our Lady's role in the life of Christ and in salvation history. Mark Miravalle, a leading proponent for having Mary declared Co-redemptrix, offered his views with ZENIT. Miravalle is professor of theology and Mariology at Franciscan University of Steubenville and president of Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici...
This is what the majority of Roman Catholics believe. Where are they learning this? Are they learning lies? Who are their teachers if not the Roman Catholic church and its representatives?
I've also posted links to the RCC catechism which use these same words and images which is obviously why these Roman Catholics feel free to repeat this theory of Mary as co-redeemer and dispensatrix of all graces as fact.
They hold a lie in their right hand.
460 posted on 10/06/2009 5:38:57 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 458 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: Dr. Eckleburg
You provided the quote below, why is it so difficult to produce a link?
“Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep”
461 posted on 10/06/2009 5:40:27 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 460 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: wagglebee; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Mr Rogers; blue-duncan; Marysecretary; HarleyD; wmfights; ...
This is the RC method of debate - pick at inconsequentials. It's your dime. Follow your heart. Remove the quotation marks and the sentence still stand in a variety of wordings -- Roman Catholics believe Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep.
Will the following photo help?
From the following link comes these quotations from the Vatican II Council...
“As St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ... ‘death through Eve, LIFE THROUGH MARY.’ This UNION OF THE MOTHER WITH THE SON IN THE WORK OF SALVATION is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).
“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, and MEDIATRIX” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).
A plaque in the Chapel of the Virgin of the Grace at Saints Vincent and Anastasius Church in Rome says, “Cardinal Benedetto Odescalchi, who became the pope with the name of Innocent XI, initiated THE WORSHIP OF THE IMAGE, placed on the altar in 1677, and wanted his heart to be buried here, not in the main chapel.”
463 posted on 10/06/2009 5:57:31 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 461 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: Dr. Eckleburg
Remove the quotation marks and...
So what you represented as a quote was not in fact a quote.
472 posted on 10/06/2009 7:30:17 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 463 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
__________________________________________________________
To: Dr. Eckleburg
First you say something is a quote, then when I ask for a citation you try to attribute it somewhere else, then you finally admit it’s not a quote at all. Now you are calling it inconsequential?
If this is what passes for “debate” among the Machenites it’s surprising Machen’s little subsect of a sect is unable to find members.
497 posted on 10/07/2009 4:39:58 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 463 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
_________________________________________________________
To: Petronski
I removed the quotations marks and STILL the words and thoughts and concepts are found in ALL the many links I offered.
Deny the printed word all you want. Doesn't change the truth. Rome puts Mary on the cross with Christ, as in this church outside Rome...
475 posted on 10/06/2009 7:38:48 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 472 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
5,065 posted on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:09:42 AM by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5033 | View Replies | Report Abuse]