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To: wagglebee; kosta50; sitetest; Kolokotronis; markomalley; Mad Dawg; narses
As an exercise I pledge that I will answer these questions without aid of any kind. I didn't even hit "view replies". My answers will be based solely on my memory of past conversations with my Orthodox friends. I invite correction as needed. :)

Do you actually know why the Orthodox don't hold the Immaculate Conception as dogma?

I think the Orthodox would say the IC is not dogma because it was never ratified by a valid Ecumenical Council.

Do you actually think that the Orthodox agree with Calvinists about the Immaculate Conception?

I think the Orthodox would agree with Calvinists that Mary was conceived of and born in the normal way. I think at least some Orthodox would say that the idea of IC would tend to lessen the humanity of Mary, and thus lessen our connection to her.

Do you think that the Orthodox believe that the Blessed Mother was stained by Original Sin?

I am less sure of this one, but as a general principle, I don't think the Orthodox believe in the idea of "original sin", at least in the way most Western Christians think of it. However, I think they would say that at birth Mary was no less subject to sin than anyone else. But before she was old enough to actually sin, she was given special grace (somewhere around three years old) and that grace resulted in her being able to never commit actual sin.

How'd I do? :)

4,940 posted on 01/19/2010 3:30:22 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper; wagglebee; MarkBsnr; sitetest; Kolokotronis; markomalley; Mad Dawg; narses
Hello FR, dear FRiend. It's good to hear form you again.

I think the Orthodox would say the IC is not dogma because it was never ratified by a valid Ecumenical Council

No. The Ecumenical Councils did not "ratify" dogma; they proclaimed it! The Pope would either agree in whole or in part with such porclamations, but the Church would go along wiht the consensus patrum.

For example, the Pope refused to acknowledge Canon xxviii of the Council of Chalcedon, but this canon was still implemented despite his objection (and even threats) a year later even by his own Illyrian bishops.

That's because the pope was not then what he was made to be later on when the Latin Church decided to go her own way.

The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was proclaimed by the Pope, without an Ecumenical Council (just as the dogma of the Ascent ion of Mary, 1952), because the Pope can bypass the Synod of caridnals.

The only dogma of the Eastern Church and the Church of the first millennium is that she gave birth to God. No other dogma regarding Mary is necessary Christologically speaking. It was intended to counter any and all speculations and teahcings by some in the Church that Christ was only a man.

I think the Orthodox would agree with Calvinists that Mary was conceived of and born in the normal way

Correct. Her conception is considered a miracle since her parents were old, but she needed no special dispensation.

I think at least some Orthodox would say that the idea of IC would tend to lessen the humanity of Mary, and thus lessen our connection to her

Correct. Immaculate Conception makes her ontologically something other than what we are by nature. Her sinlessness would therefore be no special effort, but simply her nature, the way she was created and as such nothing to look up to.

I am less sure of this one, but as a general principle, I don't think the Orthodox believe in the idea of "original sin", at least in the way most Western Christians think of it.

Kolo taught you very well. :)

However, I think they would say that at birth Mary was no less subject to sin than anyone else.

Correct. Her nature was no different than ours. She was ontologically a fallen human.

But before she was old enough to actually sin, she was given special grace (somewhere around three years old) and that grace resulted in her being able to never commit actual sin

No. The EOC teaches that she chose not to sin, out of love for God. God created us human; we can choose no to be inhuman. She was just better at it than others because she loved and served God more willingly than we do.

That's why she is exalted as the saint of saints, a role model second to none.

How'd I do? :)

Not bad for a Reformed Baptist and a lawyer! :)

I do realize that this will draw ire from some Roman Catholics. It's okay. Kolo and I have basically stopped communicating with Roman Catholics, save for a few individuals, and then only via PM.

It's good to see your Orthodox "catechisis" is holding out. Kolo will be happy. :)

4,999 posted on 01/19/2010 8:53:53 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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