Replies

“To say this is about the sovereignty of God is to be ignorant of what we disagree on. / Really? Tell that to Arthur Pink who wrote the book, “The Sovereignty of God” which is primarily about predestination and election.”

Well, if Arthur Pink was posting on these boards, I would. I would tell it to any of the communion of predestinationist saints, now called in as witnesses against me. But why?

You are here. You’ve read his book. YOU tell me why it denies God’s sovereignty to allow that God MIGHT have chosen to listen to us. Who are you or Mr Pink to tell God that his will MUST be to save a list of names, instead of calling all to believe?

I’ve been doing a lot of reading, right now primarily in Grudem’s Calvinist based Systematic Theology, since that is what our Sunday School class will be looking at today. And I’ve done a lot more reading, including articles by folks who disagree with Calvin. My free time is pretty much all reading, it seems - so help me out. Provide a summary of Pink’s book, explaining why Calvin gets to determine what God’s will is.

Because when I read scripture, I see from beginning to end where God gives grace to many, both believers and those who reject him. I see countless verses about people rejecting God, when God is confronting them and sending them prophets.

I see lots of verses about resisting God’s grace and the Holy Spirit, and how God gives his grace unequally perhaps, but also how we are responsible to respond to what grace he has given, by revealing himself to us.

I don’t see much about how there are two types of grace - ‘common grace’ to those God plans to condemn, and whom Jesus did NOT die for, and ‘special grace’, for those special people whom God wants to save.

I think it is obvious, and IAW scripture, to say that God bestows differing amounts of grace. The parable of the talents (or moneybags, so to speak) shows God doesn’t give the same revelation to all. And what does Paul say about it?

“14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”

Those who are not saved will have no excuse, for God has revealed enough that all should repent...but we don’t.

And why does God give the grace of his revelation differently? Why do some get 10 bags, and others 1?

Like a good PDer, as I assume you are, I end up with “The part that is the mystery, that we do not fully understand, is NOT that God is sovereign and elects whom He will for His own good reasons and not according to our good works, but we do not understand why He elects as He does.”

We are closer in thought than you assume. I would rewrite it as “The part that is the mystery, that we do not fully understand...is why He gives grace in unequal measure, as He does.”

“I’ve given you lots of links, but I’m not sure you’ve ever read any of them.”

I read some of Pink, but I didn’t find it very enlightening. Like many PDs, he tends to assume his argument, or to ignore mine. And I don’t have time to read a whole book by someone that I think is skirting the issue. However, the link from Van Til looks concise enough to merit a full reading, and I’ll try to do so after church. However, today is my 23rd anniversary, so I probably won’t log an enormous amount of computer time today!

“Or are all men equally fallen and none seeks God’s face unless and until God draws them to Him by the persistent, intentional, free guidance of the Holy Spirit?”

That sounds pretty accurate to me. I don’t claim everyone receives the grace of his revelation in equal amounts.

Gruden has a paragraph that should come up for discussion today, where he argues that God gives his ‘special grace’, his ‘irresistible’ grace more frequently to the children of believers than to non-believers, and that we cannot know why this is.

Really? Someone with Christian parents is taught from an early age what God’s will is, and sees their parents living - struggling, at times, but living - the Christian life. God has obviously given them a ton of grace (maybe they need it?) and like the Jews who met Jesus face to face, they have EVERY opportunity...yet sad experience is that even then, given 100 talents, so to speak, many will turn away.

Look at my own example. My conversion started in 2nd grade. As a military brat living in Taiwan in the mid-60s, I went to a school for missionary kids. Chapel every morning. Heard the gospel daily. Back then, I undeservedly lived in an environment very different from now - can you image the howls of protest if military brats overseas had to attend missionary schools, with Baptists teaching them daily about Jesus Christ? By God’s grace, I lived in a place and time that no longer exists, where parents thought nothing about sending their kids to a missionary school. There I first heard the gospel, and asked Jesus to save me, although I flunked citizenship the next half, so I’m sure my second grade teacher thought I was insincere.

But God took me at my word, perhaps. In any case, I had parents who didn’t go to church, but who made sure my sister and I did every week. And 5 years later, I met a group of Christian kids, and I KNEW that whatever they had, I wanted. I didn’t WANT to go on longer living like me. I wanted to live like them!

Pity so many of our religion threads might not cause lurkers to feel that way. But was it my merit? Nope. I didn’t reach for God, but God got in my face. By his grace, I knew I was miserable, and that those other kids were living a different life.

Was that ‘special grace”? Was it ‘prevenient grace”? Or was it God’s grace, and I don’t know why?

I choose door #3.

“The Arminians defense is that men love God and thus they believe.”

Umm...no. Allowing others to present their side isn’t one of your strong points in debate.

Arminian taught “Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer. Whereas Augustine held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted, Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation.” - wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_grace

I just don’t see anywhere in scripture where God says, “I have two types of grace. Grace A forces you to be damned, and Grace B forces you to be saved.”

I see God’s grace, given in different measure, and responded to differently, for reasons not always apparent to us. But God’s grace always leaves man with no excuse. Many do nothing with the grace they have been given, and they will lose what they already have. Even as Christians, we are warned not to harden our hearts, but to walk in the Spirit.

“Or was Christ’s sacrifice determined, ordained and accomplished through the perfect, predestined will of the Triune God?”

Absolutely!

“Who made the soil fertile and gave it rain and permitted it to bring forth good fruit?”

God. No matter what name one gives to God’s grace, it was God touching Cornelius that prepared him, not the inherent goodness of Cornelius.