Interesting that you should ask, since my answer will take me on to themes I’ve been thinking about all day - and maybe thinking wrong, since I’m very new to the subject & ideas.
Dr E links sovereignty with predestination...if no predestination, no sovereignty. However, that assumes predestination - saving people on a predetermined list, which is not how scripture seems to use predestination - is God’s chief will.
If God’s chief will is to have sons, not slaves, then he MUST give the potential sons the option of disobeying. Indeed, if he wanted slaves, he could have skipped the Garden of Eden and the Fall altogether.
“If that is so, then how can it be argued that God is showing love to us by submitting that good, pleasing and perfect will under the will of man? It would be like loving a two-year-old by submitting to his will to play in traffic. Is that love?”
God’s grace to every man - whether it is ‘common grace’ or some sort of ‘prevenient grace’ (a term I hadn’t heard of until today) - via natural revelation is sufficient to show we are evil, there is a creator, and we need to repent.
“8For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” - Romans 1, and “28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.”
Thus, an analogy of a little kid who doesn’t know to avoid traffic isn’t appropriate.
In the parable of the talents (14-30, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2025&version=ESV), those who have some will be given more, while those who do nothing lose what they have. I think that applies to grace, among other things. Those who respond to grace will receive more, while those who do not will lose what they have - their hearts will be hardened, calloused, and their foolish hearts darkened.
I don’t think scripture fully teaches common grace, prevenient grace, or special or saving grace. I think it teaches God’s grace, given unequally IAW God’s will, but all of it capable of getting a response. And that response or lack thereof results in God giving more or less revelation, either clarifying or obscuring the Gospel.
None of us seek God, but He seeks us. And his...initial grace?...is sufficient that none of us have an excuse for not repenting and turning to God. At a minimum, we ought to agree scripture teaches that!
Here is a passage I hadn’t thought much about:
“1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.”
This is before he heard the Gospel. It is before he received the Holy Spirit. Yet what does it say?
“A devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God...”Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.”
Kind of hard to argue that Cornelius did nothing approved of by God until AFTER conversion. God’s grace had sufficiently warned Cornelius that he was prepared to be saved. I suppose a PD would say that God had given Cornelius ‘saving grace’ already, or some such thing. But I think grace is grace.
Why Cornelius? Don’t know...but it sure looks like the soil was ready for the seed!
And why do some resist the Holy Spirit and God’s grace, and harden (or have hardened) their hearts? Don’t know. Maybe Satan fills their heart (Acts 5). We know it is possible to grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 4). 1 Thess 4 says, “7For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.” - so yes, even Christians can disregard God.
Hebrews 3 has, “7Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice, 8do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.” - so both the fathers hardened their hearts, and now we COULD be like them, if we fight the Spirit.
Yes, my thoughts are in jello, and perhaps they are deservedly about to slide off the plate. But we are not like 2 year olds left next to a busy street. We have no excuse for not apprehending the danger.He has revealed enough that WE have no excuse.
WELL SAID, imho.
Thx.
And yet some men do not believe. Obviously what was revealed penetrated some minds and hearts and not others.
Who makes the heart and mind? Men? Are those men smarter, more pious, more intelligent than those who do not believe?
Or are all men equally fallen and none seeks God's face unless and until God draws them to Him by the persistent, intentional, free guidance of the Holy Spirit?
The Arminians defense is that men love God and thus they believe. Scripture tells us this is backwards. God loves men and then they believe.
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23
Consider 1 Peter 1:20...
"(Christ) who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you"
Was Christ's sacrifice merely "known" or "foreseen" by God before the foundation of the world? Or was Christ's sacrifice determined, ordained and accomplished through the perfect, predestined will of the Triune God?
So, too, our lives and faith and salvation.
Why was it "ready for the seed?" Who made the soil fertile and gave it rain and permitted it to bring forth good fruit?
Christ was describing God's will when He talked about the sons the Father would/did give Him. We know that not everyone born is a child of God (John 1:12-13), and in fact the definition of being a son of God includes accepting Him. So, for salvation purposes there is no opportunity to disobey because one has already obeyed to even be called a Son. (Do I sound like Edith Bunker?) Anyway, there ARE NO potential sons. There are only the ones the Father has given to Christ.
In addition I would say that if He wanted robots He could have skipped the Garden and the Fall. But He would rather have His children be slaves to righteousness with "A" will. Naturally, we slaves blow it sometimes and do not serve our Master well. We are then subject to His discipline, which we are all familiar with. :)
God’s grace to every man - whether it is ‘common grace’ or some sort of ‘prevenient grace’ (a term I hadn’t heard of until today) - via natural revelation is sufficient to show we are evil, there is a creator, and we need to repent. .... [Quote from Rom.1] .... Thus, an analogy of a little kid who doesn’t know to avoid traffic isn’t appropriate.
Why not? We tell little kids not to do stuff all the time. They know they are not to do such and such, but what happens? They do it anyway. Think of Adam. He had all the freedom in the world and one, just ONE rule to follow. What did he do? Did he act like an adult who made an informed, reasoned decision, or did he act like a four-year-old? :) The Bible teaches that all are without excuse, but it also teaches that God's teachings are nonsense to the unbeliever:
So what does this make us as non-believers, more like a fully informed adult, or a clueless child?
Here is a passage I hadn’t thought much about: [Acts 10:1-6]. ...... This is before he heard the Gospel. It is before he received the Holy Spirit. Yet what does it say?
Kind of hard to argue that Cornelius did nothing approved of by God until AFTER conversion. God’s grace had sufficiently warned Cornelius that he was prepared to be saved. I suppose a PD would say that God had given Cornelius ‘saving grace’ already, or some such thing. But I think grace is grace.
I think you anticipated my response correctly. The part you quoted gave me a clue because God obviously heard and approved of the man's prayers. I would put him in the category of an OT righteous Jew, even though he was obviously a Gentile. He showed saving faith that would grow upon him hearing the Gospel.
And about receiving the Holy Spirit, I feel I should make a distinction. I think we may be contacted (touched) by the Holy Spirit in more than one way. At the very beginning the Holy Spirit can "touch" us to deliver saving grace (baptism of the Spirit, or regeneration), but at that point He does not indwell. Holy Spirit only indwells upon belief, which comes later.
1 Thess 4 says, “7For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.” - so yes, even Christians can disregard God.
Yes, but not to the point of losing salvation. IIRC you had said earlier that you agree with Perseverance of the Saints.
But we are not like 2 year olds left next to a busy street. We have no excuse for not apprehending the danger.He has revealed enough that WE have no excuse.
We have no excuse AND we act like two year olds. Just look at the whole OT and everything the Israelites did. How many times did you say to yourself, as I did, "How stupid can these people be?" They acted like small children. But then I realize that I am no different. I still make extremely stupid choices, unfitting for a Christian. So, I really am FULLY dependent on God for everything. Even as a Christian I wouldn't make it five minutes all on my own. That makes me a little child, not a fully informed and responsible adult.