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To: Iscool
Some of you say the full cleansing come at baptism

No. When a child is baptized, he has nothing to be cleansed of, other than original ancestral sin. So maybe in that sense there is a cleansing, but it is not ordinarily thought of that way.

What happens at baptism is that a new creation is made out of the person. His soul is marked as belonging to Christ. Now, when an adult is baptized, it wil be a requirement that he also repents of his past sin, and so that sin will be cleansed. But this is not the central part of baptism.

The cardinal, repetitive, on the as-needed basis cleansing of sin happens at the sacrament of confession, provided the priest absolves rather than retains the confessed sins.

Purgatory is a state of the soul when the soul is prepared to enter heaven. The cleansing there is for sins that the person was not aware of, so he did not confess them, for sins that are minor, or for sins that the person had a desire to confess but he did not have a chance because he died suddenly.

It is not to purify a sin that was confessed and retained, or for a sin that the person committed, is aware of, and chose not to confess. Anyone, -- anyone -- aware of a sin that mortified his soul should NOT assume that it will be cleansed in purgatory. He should seek sacramental confession at his earlier convenience, and if the sin is still retained, he should amend his life so that he can obtain sacramental absolution IN THIS LIFE, and then go and obtain it. This is nothing to toy with.

A non-Catholic who is near death can obtain the last rites and die in a state of grace, provided he is sincere in his deathbed conversion and can get a hold of a priest. It is, of course, matter of prudence to convert to the Catholic Church in an ordinary way and not on an emergency basis.

So, in short, there are many instances in the life of a Christian when purification from sin occurs. One does not exclude the other. This doens't make us "all over the map". That makes us holding the right map.

3,917 posted on 01/16/2010 9:21:25 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

I of course don’t buy into your purgatory position but I thank you for a better understanding of that position...


3,920 posted on 01/16/2010 9:31:12 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: annalex

“He should seek sacramental confession at his earlier convenience”

Why? Why not confess our sins to God?

“The cleansing there is for sins that the person was not aware of, so he did not confess them, for sins that are minor, or for sins that the person had a desire to confess but he did not have a chance because he died suddenly.”

Sure won’t find THAT in scripture! Guess Paul left that out of the full counsel of God...

“What happens at baptism is that a new creation is made out of the person.”

Magic! Cool! Been watching some Harry Potter films?

Paul wrote, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?” - Galatians 3 If only Paul had known...it was thru water!

“A non-Catholic who is near death can obtain the last rites and die in a state of grace, provided he is sincere in his deathbed conversion and can get a hold of a priest.”

What do soldiers do in Afghanistan, when there are no priests in the firefights? Is it too late for them?


3,930 posted on 01/16/2010 9:46:19 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: annalex; Iscool
No. When a child is baptized, he has nothing to be cleansed of, other than original ancestral sin. So maybe in that sense there is a cleansing, but it is not ordinarily thought of that way.

What a strange way to put it.. almost as an after thought.

The original sin is what makes man incapable of a saving relationship with God. It is what makes man totally unable to hear or understand the gospel.

I do not believe that baptism "washes" away anything but it is strange to hear you dismiss it so

That was always taught as its primary purpose.

152. Q. What is Baptism?

A. Baptism is a Sacrament which cleanses us from Original Sin, makes us Christians, children of God, and heirs of Heaven.

4,144 posted on 01/17/2010 11:11:05 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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