“That would seem to have God predestining “on the fly”, as it were, in real time as new people became members of the category. Wouldn’t that make the concept of PREdestination meaningless?”
No. If God ordained before the world began that those who believed in Jesus would be justified, sanctified and glorified, then He would have perfect knowledge of who those would be - since He knows the end from the beginning. It wouldn’t surprise Him in the least, nor would it require ‘a change of plans’.
We are Pre-destined to a destination. “29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
The ones He foreknew (knew in advance) he ALSO predestined “to be conformed to the image of his Son”. God doesn’t force us to believe or not, nor is he surprised by our choices - and those who believe WILL - because of predestination - end up conformed to the image of his Son. I would view this more as teaching eternal security than it teaches salvation by grace thru election.
“If you believe that scripture teaches that there is a chasm between us and God that only God can bridge, then mustn’t you also believe that man is unable of himself to come to saving faith?”
No. No man can jump that chasm. But God has reached across the chasm. Do we take his hand and begin the dance, or not? Or does he grab us and pull us across the chasm in a kidnapping?
Also, I don’t say that man can come by himself or of himself to saving faith. No man seeks God. Explicit revelation. But if God has sought us out, and confronted us, what happens next? Does he grab us and carry us off, like the brides on 7 Brides for 7 Brothers (old musical ping!), or does he allow and honor our choice - because it is his choice to do so?
In response to my “Well, there are many passages that command unbelievers to repent. Romans 10 has it, “10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” Believing is before justification.”, you respond, “I don’t see how this supports a hypothetical argument that man can come to God on his own.”
It doesn’t. Paul goes on, “14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
We do not come to God on our own. Unless God seeks us out and reveals himself to us, we are lost. And we may STILL be lost, sinners that we are!
“Elsewhere in the Bible it is clear that faith itself is a gift from God (e.g., Eph. 2:8).”
Ephesians 2:8 doesn’t teach it, although there may be other passages.
And that (kai touto).
Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pistiv (feminine) or to xariv (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.
http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=002&verse=008
In essence, as this non-Greek speaking person understands it, Greek grammar indicates that the gift is salvation, not faith. And in a sense faith IS a gift, because we would have nothing to put our faith in unless God bridged the gap and came to us - while we were rebels and enemies! My point on Abram in Genesis 15 is that believing preceded justification, and I see justification and regeneration as facets of the same diamond. So belief comes before or with regeneration, not AFTER it.
“Therefore, we are left with two choices; either Christ is a near total failure in achieving what He wants, or the outward call (theoretical) is not the same as the inward call (God takes action to ensure that His elect are saved).”
IF the highest goal of God was salvation for everyone, then Jesus was a failure. IF God’s highest goal was sons who willingly served Him from love, THEN Christ has been a total success - those who believe and accept His offer WILL become sons, and obey Him freely. IF God’s goal was to save a list of people picked beforehand, and if he refused to allow anyone off the list to be saved, THEN God is a liar, for that is not what He says.
At least, as I read it. I have been known to be wrong, just never to admit it! Or so my wife says...
You anticipate my reply, and write, “We would have to circle back to what you said earlier, that maybe God’s higher wish is for free will choice, etc. Wouldn’t that also qualify as a “secret will”?”
No, because I see nothing secret about it! Gen 4: “The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
Choose, Cain. What will you do?
“14 “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”” - Joshua 24
Choose this day.
” 30”Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.” - Ezekial 18
“38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” - Acts 2
“18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” - Rev 3
I see nothing hidden about God telling us to choose.
“That is, EVERYONE who believes. This is perfectly consistent with the Calvinist view of predestination since it doesn’t address how the “everyone who believes” comes into being.”
Suppose I went to a group of people - none of whom had any money - and said, “Anyone who has $5 can come in from the cold.” I then take out a list, and give $5 to everyone on the list. The ones I gave $5 to hand it back to me and enter, while everyone else stays outside.
Did I really mean “anyone with $5”, or did I really mean, “anyone on my secret list”?
“However, I am unaware of Calvin ever putting himself on a par with the Apostles.”
He didn’t. I like reading Calvin, even when I disagree. He may be more dogmatic in the “Institutes” than his commentaries and other works...haven’t read the Institutes much. I wish more people would read his commentaries and fewer concern themselves with him...and I think he would agree.
No. If God ordained before the world began that those who believed in Jesus would be justified, sanctified and glorified, then He would have perfect knowledge of who those would be - since He knows the end from the beginning. It wouldn’t surprise Him in the least, nor would it require ‘a change of plans’.
Relatively speaking, how would this then not make God little more than sort of a scribe, in essence, with the population of Heaven being ultimately solely decided by humans and not God? From this I picture God holding out a hoop before all humanity. With His foreknowledge He simply observes which humans choose (will choose) to jump through it, and then writes their names down in the Book of Life. If this is the formula, then the Book of Life might contain the names of all people who ever lived or no one at all, or anywhere in between, and all of it depends solely on human decisions concerning the condition God set, belief.
Please correct me if this is not your position, but if it IS your position then I still think it makes the concept of GOD predestinating meaningless BECAUSE the decisions are actually being made by humans, not Him. One who is predestinating is causing something to happen. Here, it would seem God would simply be copying the results of humans "destinating" themselves.
I think that for the concept of GOD predestinating to have meaning it must include God making sovereign decisions concerning the direct objects of the predestination. The way I'm reading your scenario is that God's REAL predestination is NOT a causal action concerning which individual people get into Heaven, but rather a declaring of the MEANS by which people can choose to get themselves into Heaven (whomever those people turn out to be). Again, this would be more like people "self-destinating" rather than God predestining. This would not seem to match the text in Rom. 8, which clearly has God as the actor in the predestinating. The concept of predestining must be larger than that of simply copying something down that someone already knows.
And IF all of this is correct, then another huge problem I see is how you could account for God's actions within time concerning people coming to faith. Does God do anything for people within time to help bring them to faith? If "no", then there is no problem here. But if God DOES act within time then His foreknowledge INCLUDES His own actions AND the results of those actions. This creates a paradox.
For example, we start with the assumption that God's predestination means that He set the condition of faith for salvation and He used His foreknowledge to peek at who those people would be, and then He "predestined" them. This would be God not interfering with the free will choice of man to believe or not. Further, we assume that God acts in some way within time (by grace, leading, or other means) to help bring people to faith, without forcing. The paradox is that God can't leave man's free will unfettered because when He peeks at everyone's free will yes/no decision He must also be peeking at the peoples' reactions to HIS actions. That would put the decisions back in God's hands (since God chooses His own actions) and thwart the free will "predestination as category" idea.
God doesn’t force us to believe or not, nor is he surprised by our choices - and those who believe WILL - because of predestination - end up conformed to the image of his Son.
I don't understand your use of "because of predestination". What changes because of predestination? I thought you were using predestination as God observing what has "already happened" through free will choice. That would mean that people would end up conformed to the image of His Son BECAUSE they believed, not because of predestination.
And please let me inject here that I am only trying to interpret what you have been saying in your good presentations on this very complex subject as best I can. If I'm all wet about describing your ideas then I am very sorry in advance. :)
Do we take his hand and begin the dance, or not? Or does he grab us and pull us across the chasm in a kidnapping?
Well, "yes" and "yes" (sort of). :) God gives a new heart to those He chooses first, and then with that new heart the person chooses to take God's hand and begin the dance.
We do not come to God on our own. Unless God seeks us out and reveals himself to us, we are lost. And we may STILL be lost, sinners that we are!
OK good. That helps me past a big hurdle. :)
My point on Abram in Genesis 15 is that believing preceded justification, and I see justification and regeneration as facets of the same diamond. So belief comes before or with regeneration, not AFTER it.
If one is already a full believer before regeneration, then what does regeneration do? Why would we need it (if we do)? Or, how would they operate together?
FK: “That is, EVERYONE who believes. This is perfectly consistent with the Calvinist view of predestination since it doesn’t address how the “everyone who believes” comes into being.”
Suppose I went to a group of people - none of whom had any money - and said, “Anyone who has $5 can come in from the cold.” I then take out a list, and give $5 to everyone on the list. The ones I gave $5 to hand it back to me and enter, while everyone else stays outside. Did I really mean “anyone with $5”, or did I really mean, “anyone on my secret list”?
Well, both, I think. Your first statement to the group announces the condition that must be met for entry. That is, $5, as opposed to anyone who can do a handstand or has a hard boiled egg in his pocket, etc. The group is then on notice with valuable information.
Then, for your own reasons, you pull out your list and give certain people the $5, who then get in immediately. Everyone else sees this, and not only is your original statement proved true the rest of the people find out HOW it is true. It's true because the $5 was given. Now what will the rest of the people do? Well, I suppose some might walk away and never come back, and some might try again the next day. (The analogy can't be a one shot deal, it has to cross time.) So the next day comes along and you say the same thing to a different group and give out $5 to certain of them, and the process is repeated. It is very possible that someone from the first day who didn't get in will get in this time.
You make an outward call putting everyone on notice as to what the rule is. Then you decide by what method people will meet the condition, and provide for it as you see fit. You own the shelter, you make the rules. You have no duty to allow anyone in at all. But in your mercy you choose to give warmth to some.
I don't see anything sneaky or misleading by the original statement, it is simply a fact, whoever has the $5 gets in. I think it is especially above board since we are even told how one comes into getting $5. It must be given. The same rule applies to everyone.
I wish more people would read his [Calvin's] commentaries and fewer concern themselves with him...and I think he would agree.
I agree with you too. His words stand or fall the same as with any other uninspired writer, how well do they reflect the scriptures.