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To: sitetest; Mad Dawg; Iscool; boatbums; NoGrayZone; Quix; caww; Dr. Eckleburg; Petronski; annalex
FK: “If someone asked me what the source of a Catholic’s faith is, I should answer that it is the Eucharist and the Mass? That is, as opposed to God Himself?”

The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, our Lord. Thus, your question, to us, is a false dichotomy. The Most Blessed Sacrament is Jesus with us in His Sacramental Presence. That Presence is at close as we get to Heaven in this life.

I don't see how this addresses "source of faith". Presence doesn't mean a transfer of faith (necessarily).

And thus, the Sacrifice of the Mass, which is the offering of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ to God the Father, with His entire Church joined to Him (which is also His Body), is on earth the supreme act of worship for Catholics.

If it is the supreme act of worship then that mandates that you already had faith before you participated in it. How can it then be the source? :)

In the Mass, we become present at Calvary and are joined to the Sacrifice Jesus made on the Cross.

What does this mean? I can think of some possibilities that sound pretty bad, so maybe it would be better if I just let you answer first. :)

However, regarding prayer alone, I'll say this: all prayer to the saints is conditioned on the premise that it's all God. Personally, when I pray to saints in my own words, I ask them to pray for me. Even prayers to Mary, which include the highest praise that may be offered to a human creature, generally include or end with petitions to her to pray for us. But when I pray to God in petition, I never ask God in prayer to pray for me. God, I petition for the thing itself, whatever it is.

OK, I'd say that addresses well many of the strongest criticisms of Protestants concerning the subject. That matches the analogy often given of asking a friend for prayer. However, as many of us on the other side have done, it is easy to find published prayers to Mary that read like this - Petition to Mary by Saint Alphonsus Liguori :

"Most holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the queen of the universe, the advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day. I venerate thee, great queen, and I thank thee for the many graces thou has bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often deserved by my sins. I love thee, most dear Lady; and for the love I bear thee, I promise to serve thee willingly forever and to do what I can to make thee loved by others also. I place in thee all my hopes for salvation; accept me as thy servant and shelter me under thy mantle, thou who art the Mother of mercy. And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the strength to overcome them until death. From thee I implore a true love for Jesus Christ. Through thee I hope to die a holy death. My dear Mother, by the love thou bearest to Almighty God, I pray thee to assist me always, but most of all at the last moment of my life. Forsake me not then, until thou shalt see me safe in heaven, there to bless thee and sing of thy mercies through all eternity. Such is my hope. Amen." (emphasis added)

This is by no means an isolated example, so I'm sure you can imagine what is going through our minds when we read prayers (by a Saint no less) like this. :)

3,214 posted on 01/15/2010 2:18:18 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper

I will ask you again, please, do not ping me to your every reply to this—or any—thread.


3,219 posted on 01/15/2010 4:07:59 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Forest Keeper

I SO get that!

I love Alphonse Liguori. But I really recognize that he is an acquired taste.

Nancy and I still sort of randomly insert (ahem, by your intercession) when we read stuff like that.

Catholic Piety and culture are lush, extravagant, stuff that I as, by culture, an Episcopalian - God’s Frozen People — find a little icky. I mean, you start talking like that, you might end up using the wrong fork!


3,229 posted on 01/15/2010 6:44:28 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Forest Keeper
"...I place in thee (Mary) all my hopes for salvation; accept me as thy servant..."

Whew. The blowback from that kind of error could be fearsome.

Where does Scripture say are we to serve anyone in heaven but the Triune God alone?

"Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." -- 1 John 5:21

3,367 posted on 01/15/2010 12:36:47 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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