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To: HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; RnMomof7; Gamecock; Alamo-Girl

Sorry, Harley, but you do NOT get to define what others believe.

“There is only God’s will and there is man’s will.”

If God commands you to repent, and you do, you are doing God’s will.

“The scriptures teaches us that until we are saved we are bound by man’s will. We simply do not have a desire to do the will of God. The Son must set us free from this predicament.”

Hmmm...what does scripture teach? Let’s read!

“And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” - Romans 10

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel.” So some have? Obeyed the Gospel? But that suggests we respond to God.

“For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”” - Romans 10

Did God mean For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in [me] will not be put to shame”, or did He mean “Everyone I give belief to will not be put to shame.”

You see, God COULD have inspired Paul to write it YOUR way...but he didn’t. Or are we back to God having a public will, that men be saved, and a private ‘secret’ will, that they be damned?

“18In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead ( since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” - Romans 4

Look again...does it say God gave belief to Abram? “In hope he believed against hope...He did not weaken in faith...No distrust made him waver...he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” Sure seems to be a lot of action verbs in there, with Abram ‘doing’ it.

Blasphemy! How dare Paul insult the sovereignty of God!

“6For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.” - Rom 5 Paul blasphemes again, suggesting we were WEAK. Everyone knows we were DEAD. Why, the Apostle Paul taught that!

“6Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? “ - Romans 6

We present ourselves? To obedience? BLASPHEMY!!! Paul meant God compels us to obedience. Paul just used the wrong words.

“And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.” - 1 Thess 2

YOU received the word of God...YOU accepted it. But they were dead. They could neither receive nor accept!

If God did as you say, either God is a liar, or God had scripture written in a misleading manner. He could very easily have said, “saved by grace thru election”, and we wouldn’t have this discussion. He could have said, “For God so loved the elect”, but it says “world”. He could have said, ‘Whosoever I call to believe”, but he left it at “whosoever believes”.

FWIW: whosoever = “whoever; whatever person”...” individually a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything”...translated in the AV — all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11

Either God lies - which IS blasphemy - or God is somewhat less selective than you make Him out to be.


2,718 posted on 01/13/2010 5:54:17 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; RnMomof7; Gamecock; Alamo-Girl
Sorry, Harley, but you do NOT get to define what others believe.

Please show me where I've defined what others believe. I've stated what is in scriptures. You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. You can't be both.

If God commands you to repent, and you do, you are doing God’s will. ...Did God mean For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in [me] will not be put to shame”, or did He mean “Everyone I give belief to will not be put to shame.”

This is only half of the Augustine's argument. I would suggest reading A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints.

Of course God calls people to repentance. God always calls people to repentance. Noah preached for 120 years all the while he was building an ark that God had commanded would only carry 7 people. As Augustine pointed out God says:

You'll notice that these two verses are opposites. In the first one God commands the people to get themselves a new heart and spirit. In the second one God says He will give them a new heart and spirit. As Augustine argued, why would He want to give the people a new heart/spirit if they were commanded by God to get themselves a new heart/spirit. This logic produced the Augustine prayer, "Command what you will and grant what you command." God commands man but He must grant what He commands.

You see, God COULD have inspired Paul to write it YOUR way...but he didn’t.

I would suggest you are only reading half of Augustine's prayer. God commands everyone to repent. But until God opens up our ears and eyes, we simply cannot hear or see.

Now tell me how you would interpret these verses?

Look again...does it say God gave belief to Abram?...That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”

Abraham is one of my favorite examples. I don't have time to dwell on this but please note the reference you are quoting is with the promise of a son-approximately 17 years after God saved Abraham. Abraham "grew" in his faith. He was already saved.

As for the more pointed question whether God gave Abraham his faith, the answer is yes. Faith is a gift from God (1 Cor 12:9). There is nothing you have received that has not been given to you, including your faith.

Here is a reference from the London Baptist Confession of 1644:

XXII.

That Faith is the84 gift of God wrought in the hearts of the elect by the Spirit of God, whereby they come to see, know, and believe the truth of85 the Scriptures, and not only so, but the excellency of them above all other writings and things in the world, as they hold forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power of the fullness of the Spirit in its workings and operations; and thereupon are enabled to cast the weight of their souls upon this truth thus believed.

XXIII.

Those that have this precious faith wrought in them by the Spirit, can never finally nor totally fall away; and though many storms and floods do arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon, but shall be kept by the power of God to salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being formerly engraven upon the palms of God's hands.86

XXIV.

That faith is ordinarily87 begot by the preaching of the Gospel, or word of Christ, without respect to88 any power or capacity in the creature, but it is wholly89 passive, being dead in sins and trespasses, doth believe, and is converted by no less power,90 than that which raised Christ from the dead.

London Baptist Confession of 1644

As the confession points our, our faith is of God and raised of God.

2,762 posted on 01/13/2010 6:41:55 PM PST by HarleyD
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