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To: Dutchboy88; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights; Marysecretary

“Free will is defined (universally, I believe) as the ability to select among a group of options with no outside influence exerted upon the man. Correct?”

Not even close. This is a discussion of free will vs predestination, and specifically sparked by my comments that I reject the L & I in TULIP.

L = Limited Atonement. Did Jesus just die for a prechosen few, the elect? Or did he die for all?

I = Irresistible grace. Does God, having chosen us as individuals, give us new hearts and then make us believe? Or did God choose to save those who believe, and cause us to come alive through our faith in Him?

If I have incorrectly defined the L & I, I stand ready for correction. Perhaps some define Limited Atonement and Irresistible grace differently. I’m a retired military officer, not theologian. I’ve never taken a class in philosophy, nor theology, with the possible exception of the Systematic Theology text our Sunday School class has started working through - and we haven’t gotten to the PD/FW chapters.

So correct away, and let us debate without the confusion of differing terms. We agree that scripture says we do not seek God, and that was certainly true in my case. God seeks us...but does he give us the choice of believing, or not?

And if I have utterly misunderstood the teachings of Reformed Calvinists...I apologize in advance.


1,835 posted on 01/11/2010 2:31:20 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
“Free will is defined (universally, I believe) as the ability to select among a group of options with no outside influence exerted upon the man. Correct?”

"Not even close. This is a discussion of free will vs predestination, and specifically sparked by my comments that I reject the L & I in TULIP.

Beg to differ. If you cannot define your terms, you cannot defend your argument. I am setting out what it is that Free Will is understood to be, and then would follow up with why it is mutually exclusive with predestination.

As far as Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace, I see no problems with these working defs.

1,857 posted on 01/11/2010 4:33:40 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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