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To: annalex; esquirette; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg

“an individual is not saved until he is justified by his works, as the gospel makes clear (Romans 2:6-10, 2 Peter 1:10, Matthews 25:31-46).”

Romans 2 does NOT teach that we must obey the law and be saved by our works!

In Romans 1, Paul states as an introduction: “ 16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

In Romans 1:18-32, he talks about the righteousness of God’s wrath on man. After getting us to nod our heads and agree that God deservedly punishes sinners such as those, he then says, “1Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.”

What? I do the same things? 2:1-11 shows that Jew or Gentile, God will judge all who are sinners. 2:12-29 addresses Jews & the Law, ans shows the Law will not save them.

Romans 3 continues to discuss our sin, concluding that:

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

And then, in Romans 3:21-31, he returns to the Gospel, and what God has done for us:

“21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith...27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”

Romans 2:6-10 is not the Gospel, but what we deserve apart from the Gospel. CONTEXT!

2 Peter 1 starts off thus: “3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature...”

Peter talks about what GOD is doing, by “His divine power”. And why is this important? “8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” I’m old enough to have experienced times when I was content to stagnate, and be unfruitful. But praise God! He doesn’t give up. And in verse 10: “Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.”

Our calling and election...HarleyD & Dr. Eckleburg will enjoy an area we disagree, but not completely. We are called by God...but the qualities Peter mention are NOT our justification, but develop after we are justified. Until one is born again, these qualities are dross. These MANIFEST the new birth. They do not cause it.

Matthew 25:31-46...while it is always a bit dicey to derive doctrine from parables, consider this: the folks who did good didn’t realize they were doing so...”saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you”

They were not doing good works to be saved, but being saved, did good works without even knowing!

And the evil THOUGHT they were doing all God required of them. The true law of God was NOT written on their hearts.

“And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.” - Hebrews 10

As Luther puts it:

“But to fulfill the law means to do its work eagerly, lovingly and freely, without the constraint of the law; it means to live well and in a manner pleasing to God, as though there were no law or punishment. It is the Holy Spirit, however, who puts such eagerness of unconstained love into the heart, as Paul says in chapter 5. But the Spirit is given only in, with, and through faith in Jesus Christ, as Paul says in his introduction. So, too, faith comes only through the word of God, the Gospel, that preaches Christ: how he is both Son of God and man, how he died and rose for our sake. Paul says all this in chapters 3, 4 and 10.

That is why faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law; faith it is that brings the Holy Spirit through the merits of Christ. The Spirit, in turn, renders the heart glad and free, as the law demands. Then good works proceed from faith itself. That is what Paul means in chapter 3 when, after he has thrown out the works of the law, he sounds as though the wants to abolish the law by faith. No, he says, we uphold the law through faith, i.e. we fulfill it through faith.”

You wrote: “an individual is not saved until he is justified by his works, as the gospel makes clear”

That is explicitly denied by Jesus:

“18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” and,

Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

It is explicitly denied by Paul:

“8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

It is explicitly denied by Peter:

“Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9 obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.”, and,

“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

You wrote: “we need prayers of others, especially of the righteous ones for our own salvation: Acts 7:59, 2 Timothy 2:10, 1 Timothy 2:1, James 5:16”

Hmmm...

Acts 7:59 59And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

That teaches we need the prayers of the righteous ones to be saved?

2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

That teaches we need the prayers of the righteous ones to be saved?

“the suffering itself build up a merit that the Church can then apply to those in spiritual need.”

Colossians 1 says:

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him...proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister...to make the word of God fully known...which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

How does that teach that suffering builds up a merit that the church applies to others?


1,455 posted on 01/10/2010 5:42:32 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
How does that teach that suffering builds up a merit that the church applies to others?

How does it NOT teach that?

Seriously. I've never been nuts for the "treasury of merit" image. But I AM nuts for the life of Christ living in the redeemed so that they say, with Paul, now I live, yet not I but Christ lives in me.

And what Christ does on earth is suffer and die a lot. And the benefits of His atoning suffering and death are applied as He, the Head of the body, the Church. wills

As we participate in his life, as we put off the old man, as the flesh dies and we put on Christ with whom our life is hid, we, in our view, put on an incredibly undeserved intimate union with Him, so that we may share in his work, and in His love, soaked in the torrent.

Of course, to the extent that I consider this MY work in any proprietary way, that is old man, that is flesh, that is death and rags. There is no room for pride, only for astonished gratitude.

Now as to the other half, The Church "applying," well, I don't expect to close the sale, but you know what we think apostle means, and the rest follows from that.

Darn, this is so inadequate. It'll serve as a token, a marker, maybe.

1,458 posted on 01/10/2010 6:00:19 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mr Rogers; esquirette; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
This is another wordy exercise in "don't read what is written, read what I have to say about it". When St. Paul says "Who [God, that is] will render to every man according to his works", I take from it that God will render salvation or condemnation according to his works (Rm. 2:6, and for context see down to verse 10, and of course see Matthew 25 the second part of the chapter).

Now, does faith have anything to do with it? -- of course it does. It is by faith that we do those works. That is the context that you point out in so many words. Have faith, and you will do the works. But faith without works is dead -- it will not save anyone (James 2:24-26, Mt 7:21). Nowhere, except in Luther's fraudulent and now forgotten translation, does any part of the Romans teach that man is saved by faith alone. It teaches that faith is very important, that faith leads to salvation even of worst sinners, that without Christ we'd all be in Hell, all that. But it does not teach any different than that faith or not faith, the judgement is rendered by our works, to all.

the qualities Peter mention are NOT our justification, but develop after we are justified

Efter we are justified we are in heaven or hell, to late to develop anything. The good works that St. Peter enumerates are the path of spiritual growth whereby we cooperate with grace and free ourselves from sin, and the result is that our calling and election become sure. Nowhere does he say that the process stops after some imaginary rebirth, -- "born again" for the apostolic Church always has meant one thing, baptism, and surely a baptised baby has not made his calling an election sure. He simply has been born again, in Christ.

dicey to derive doctrine from parables

Careful. You are practicing hermeneutics again.... If it was good enough for Christ to teach me from parables, it is good enough for me to learn from parables. Besides since when Matthew 25:31ff a parable? It is simply a detailed account what Christ intends to do when He comes back. Where, do you think, St. Paul got his Romans 2:6-10, an AWANA class?

whoever does not believe is condemned already

Of course. Deny Christ's resurrection, laugh at our Lady, laugh at the Eucharist, and you are condemned already. It is easy to not beleive, that is the wide path. But what is it to believe? Come to my Church, I'll show you adult men on their knees, nuns and monks who gave up natural pleasures for something they cannot see or touch, overworked priests that look like the happiest people on earth, 20 centuries of civilization, bones of martyrs in the altar, lives transformed by grace, pew-wide families, hour long lines to the confessional... That is Faith, capital F.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works

Eph. 2 is often misunderstood as to what the "it" is. The "it" is not salvation -- "it" has grammatically to refer to a noun, -- "it" is grace. Which is exactly Catholic teaching: you are saved by grace alone, through both faith and works, as the next verse makes sure, -- the verse you omit to make the erroneous point. Here is the entire passage:

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2)

We should walk in them.

There are many passages in the Scripture that call for greater faith. There are many passages in the Scripture that call for sincere works of love. That is because works cannot be separated from faith. Luther tried, see where it got his followers: mega churches, prosperity "gospel", massive loss of faith, pathetic disunity on foundational doctrine. The Reformation has to salvage what has not been lost and return to the Church, fast.

[2 Tim. 2:10] teaches we need the prayers of the righteous ones to be saved?

That passage, and most directly, Col 1:24 teaches that the suffering of a saint can be salvific to others. It does not use the word "merit" but the implication is that the suffering done in imitation of Christ transfers to others, like a treasure accumulated by one can be made available to someone else.

1,468 posted on 01/10/2010 6:36:48 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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