Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[RnMomof7]

Of course you don’t that is no surprise..Spurgeon was a jerk compared to some of the theological geniuses here right ?? /scarasm.

[daniel1212]

>If Mr Rogers says "Eucharist" he is taken to task with considerable vigor! It seems divisive, bitter, and more restrictive than a lot of Catholics are about terminology,<

His censure is very limited here, but outside of division that is due to having carnality (1Cor. 3:3) or a censorious or proud spirit, (3Jn. 3:9) division because of truth (1Cor. 11:19) is better than unity around error, (Mt. 15:14) and the former testifies to the esteem placed upon doctrine, versus membership in a group. Today, Catholicism will tolerate a wide variety or persons who disagree with her, as liberal politicians and their glorious funerals testify to, and which sends a message that the most critical things is that one dies in the arms of Rome.

It takes a real aberration to get an Episcopal church to split, but due to a higher commitment to doctrine, and less dependency on one church, evangelicals have had more divisions, but such historically has usually resulted in enlargment of the body of Christ thru cell divisions.

And as noted before, despite different evangelical denominations, and lack of a central head, they manifest a remarkable working unity, but based on their common regeneration and faith in Christ, and seen in the vast interdenominational ministries and media outlets supported by them. However, the general apostasy is resulting in the glory of the latter temple being a cause for weeping to those who knew the former, and when i read of men of old, (like this common man: http://www.eaec.org/faithhallfame/dlmoody.htm) i am convicted even more of my sore lack and need to pray and to seek the Lord more.

As for comparing Evangelicals and Catholics, various formal studies, spanning 1992 to 2008 (see sources here, show, 73% (highest) of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth, with Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists being tied at 33%, and the lowest being among Episcopalians with just 28% 64% of those in Assemblies of God churches (versus only 9% of Catholics) strongly DISAGREE that if a person is generally good, or does enough good things for others they will earn a place in Heaven [salvation on the basis of merit]. 56% of Assemblies of God (versus 17% Catholics) Christians strongly DISAGREE that Satan is just a symbol of evil [rather than a real being]. Catholics and Mainline Protestants tend towards more belief in a more Distant God. Evangelical Protestants and Black Protestants tend towards belief in a more Authoritarian God. Among 7,441 Protestant pastors. Asked if they believed that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God: 87% of Methodists said no. 95% of Episcopalians said no. 82% of Presbyterians said NO. 67% of American Baptists said no Bible Reading: the highest was 75%, by those going to a Pentecostal/Foursquare church who reported they had read the Bible during the past week (besides at church), while the lowest was among Catholics at 23% Volunteer church work (during past 7 days): Assemblies of God were highest at 30%, with the lowest going to Catholics at 12%. Donating Money (during the last month): Church of Christ churches were the highest at 29%, with Catholics being the lowest at 12% American evangelicals gave four times as much, per person, to churches as did all other church donors in 2001. 88 percent of evangelicals and 73 percent of all Protestants donated to churches. By denomination, 61% of the those associated with an Assemblies of God church said they had shared their faith at least once during the past year, followed by 61% of those who attend a Pentecostal/Foursquare church, and ending 14% among Episcopalians and just 10% among Roman Catholics 39 percent of Catholics affirmed not attending church is a sin, versus 23 percent of Protestants. Weekly Church attendance: Evangelicals showed the highest participation of approx 60 percent (30% more than once a week). Catholics were at 45 percent (9% more than once a week), and Jews 15 percent. The highest percentage of those who strongly agree they have a personal responsibility to share their faith was found among believers in Pentecostal/Foursquare churches (73%) 81% of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly agree that the Bible is totally accurate in all that it teaches , followed by 77% of Assemblies of God believers, and ending with 26% of Catholics and 22% of Episcopalians. 40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59% Committed Roman Catholics (church attendance weekly or almost) versus Non-R.C.: Abortion: 24% R.C. vs. 19% Non-R.C.; Sex between unmarried couples: 53% vs. 30%; Baby out of wedlock: 48% vs. 29%; Homosexual relations: 44% vs. 21%; Gambling: 67% vs. 40%; Divorce: 63 vs. 46% Catholics broke with their Church's teachings more than most other groups, with just six out of 10 Catholics affirming that God is "a person with whom people can have a relationship", and three in 10 describing God as an "impersonal force." Only 33% of Catholics strongly affirmed that Christ was sinless on earth 88% of Catholics believe that they can practice artificial means of birth control and still be considered good Catholics. 70 % of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus [it is, of His death], indicating they do not believe it is Jesus actual body and blood Only 30% of Catholics said believe they are really and truly receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

26 percent of Catholics polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivoval position on abortion Catholic women have an abortion rate 29 percent higher than Protestants. 46 percent of Catholics who say they attend mass weekly accept Church teaching on abortion; 43 percent accept the all-male priesthood; and 30 percent see contraception as morally wrong. 31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases. 73 percent of Catholics rejected Catholic teaching artificial methods of birth control. Only 20 percent strongly agreed with the Church teaching that only men may be ordained. 59% of all Catholic women of childbearing age practice contraception—a rate of usage statistically equivalent to that of the general population (60%). 66% of Catholics supported women's ordination to the priesthood, and 73% approved of the way John Paul II leads the church. 80% of Catholics believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic. 77 % of Catholics polled "believe a person can be a good Catholic without going to Mass every Sunday, 65 percent believe good Catholics can divorce and remarry, and 53 percent believe Catholics can have abortions and remain in good standing. 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations, : 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. 44 percent of the priests said "definitely" a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order 50 percent of Protestants affirmed gambling was a sin, versus 15 percent of Catholics; that getting drunk was a sin: 63 percent of Protestants, 28 percent of Catholics; gossip: 70 percent to 45 percent: homosexual activity or sex: 72 percent to 42 percent. 39 percent of Roman Catholics and 79 percent of born-again, evangelical or fundamentalist Americans affirm that homosexual behavior is sinful. 79 percent of American Jews, 58 percent of Catholics and 56 percent of mainline Protestants favor acceptance of homosexuality, versus 39 percent of members of historically black churches, 27 percent of Muslims and 26 percent of the evangelical Protestants. U.S. Evangelical Churches (17%), had the lowest percentage of souls aged 18-29, versus Unaffiliated (31%), Muslims (29%), Historically Black Churches (24%), Mormons (24%) and Other Faiths (24%). Mainline Churches had the greater percentage (23%) of souls 65 and older. 2% of Mainline Churches, 77% of Catholics and 53% of Evangelical Churches affirmed, "There is MORE than one true way to interpret the teachings of my religion." 50% of Evangelicals considered themselves Republican or leaned toward that party, 34% Democratic or leaned thereto; 9% Independents. 48% of Catholics considered themselves Democrats or leaned toward that party, 33% Republican or leaned thereto; 10% Independent. 88% of Evangelicals voted for Sen. McCain in 2008, compared to just 11% for Sen. Obama. 40% of evangelicals said it was because of the candidate’s position on moral issues. Only 9% of other voters listed that as their driving reason. Other significant reasons for evangelical voters included their candidate’s political experience (23%) and his character (15%). 37% of Catholics were registered as Democrats, 27% Republican, and 31% as Independents. 77 percent of Black Protestants said they vote Democratic, whether they attended weekly services or not. The 16 most Catholic states contain 24 of the most liberal cities. Excluding (Maryland 26th), predominately Roman Catholic states contain all but one (Seattle WA) of the 30 most liberal cities. Of states in which S. Baptists are the single largest denomination none (of the 30 cities) were found (the term “liberal: being defined according to individual contributions to PACs, election returns and the number of homosexual households: (See HERE for Table of casual Religio-Political relations. And HERE for Correlation between faith, ideology, politics, environment, money.)

[RnMomof7]

Thanks

[Judith Anne]

That horse sure has pretty feet. ;-D And your daughter looks very comfortable on her with a light touch on the reins...

[MarkBsnr]

Paul is telling us that it is possible that he could fall away.

Agreed. Meaning falling out of fellowship with God, by an act of sin, missing the target of His Plan, not the loss of eternal salvation in terms of removal of a human spirit life, but placing the soul out of fellowship with God, not abiding in Him in our thinking, not walking in faith, prior to the first death. Um, no. Paul is talking about salvation.

They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. Correct. There are many crowns in heaven which were made in our eternity past which await the bema seat judgment administered by our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. God the Father has placed all the judgment in Him, and that includes His duties as an escrow officer evaluating our works and measuring them by Divine standards to determine if those works are worthy His gifts in those crowns by His grace through faith. Paul is showing us that some crowns might not be awarded due to our disqualification of performing a work outside of faith through Christ.

Crowns? Awarded? What difference does it make if one attains salvation? Does one get seats at field level at the 50 yard line in the heavenly throne room? Does one get filet mignon if one has seven crowns, but only meatloaf if one has two? The ultimate reward is to be with God in Heaven in His Presence forevermore. What is this rewards nonsense?

We work out our salvation here on earth in order to enter Heaven, not for some fictitious level of rewards in Heaven.

[daniel1212]

>But when these people talk it doesn’t occur to me that they in anyway represent Catholic teaching or belief.<

I understand, but neither do WTS disciples, with their allegiance to an authority over the Bible, qualify as Protestants, according to the foundational aspects. Nor do practicing adulterers in S. Baptist churches, qualify... But if the church recognizes then as members, rather than formally disfellowshipping them when known, the that militates against those who would exclude them as members. Will add to this below to Natural Law.

[MarkBsnr]

Of course not...There's nothing in there about salvation...Paul says to run the race as if you are in a marathon and their is only one prize for one winner...

In this case the winner or loser is the individual. It is entirely 100 per cent about salvation.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Paul says he is justified and that there is only One that matters when it comes to judgement...

Read it again. Paul does not say that he is justified. He merely says that he is Judged by God, that he is not hereby justified and that he knows nothing by himself.

Philippians 2: 12 10 11 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

It's all fun and games until you lose your salvation.

Nothing there about losing salvation...We've already learned numerous times that salvation is a free gift...You can't earn it...Therefore, you don't have to work for your salvation...

But you can lose it. All of our posts back and forth come down to this: Christians believe that man can reject the salvation of God and you claim no. You have no proofs and no strong evidence. The claimsthat there are different rewards in Heaven are idiotic since there is only one reward in Heaven - to be in the presence of Almighty God forever.

[Judith Anne]

Daniel, your source is suspect. I found this at your link, and it impeaches the interpretation of everything there:

“In addition to resting her case for the papacy essentially upon circular reasoning – namely, that according to her interpretation of Mt. 16:13-19) only her interpretations can be correct in any conflict – Rome also seeks to validate her presumed preeminence via a supposed historical linkage back to the apostles. Yet the authenticity of the, or a, true church does not rest upon any real or supposed historical linkage back to the apostles, any more than the authenticity of a true Jew rests upon physical linkage back to Abraham, as Rm. 2:28, 29 declares. Rather in both cases, authenticity is based upon Abrahamic type faith in the apostolic gospel, which knows nothing of salvation by proxy, or justification that depends on Romish rituals, but which justifies the destitute sinner with imputed righteousness the moment they repent and cast all their faith upon the risen Lord Jesus (and thus follow Him:. Acts 10:34-47). Praise ye the Lord!”

[Judith Anne]

Who is the “Peace by Jesus” website used by?

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html#Sec4

[MarkBsnr]

http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/mass-and-sacrifice-christ

Posting from violently antiCatholic websites again? At least you are not claiming carm.org as a Catholic website while spointing its lies. Have you stopped the practice of posting from pagan and anti Christian websites and claiming that they are authorized by the Vatican?

[RnMomof7]

Doesn’t say but they are tied to a very reputable evangelical site for resources..

[MarkBsnr]

Everyone is equal at the table.

Not in the creepy cult of Calvinism. There are an elect bunch that think of themselves as more equal than everybody else.

[Natural Law]

"You're entitled to your grotesquely-contorted strawman version of Catholicism, but you cannot make it true."

It is disappointing how failed Catholics seek to justify their actions by wrongly making the Church worthy of undeserved scorn.

[daniel1212]

Well, as said above, even if they doctrinally or morally line up, if a church does not formally discipline outright offenders, (1Cor. 5; 1Tim. 1:20) or disfellowship them, (2 Thes. 3:6,14; Titus 3:10 1Tim. 6:5; 2tim. 3:5; Rm. 16:17; 2Jn. 1:10) such as Teddy K never really was, (and disfellowshipping themselves was not it) then it is hard to exclude them. The right kind of preaching alone should afflict the comfortable in sin, and offer comfort the afflicted by sin. And good preaching convicts me.

As for definitions, i believe one has to first go by what originally most essentially originally constituted that identity. If we are too loose, then we are like atheists who like to call Hitler a Christian, acting out Christian beliefs (while denying Stalin was a real atheists, acting out of the objectively baseless moral reasoning of atheism) but he clearly does not qualify as such, according to how the people who were first called Christians (Acts 11:26) manifested such faith.

[1000 silverlings]

Well let me tell you, I wonder that you are a Baptist. Number one, no Baptist churches handle rattlesnakes. Pentecostal churches that believe in signs, handle rattlesnakes, and then, not mainstream Pentecostals, but small independent churches.

[MarkBsnr]

Japheth, being the father of the Greeks, was given the prophecy that his people would share spiritual blessings with the Jews.

Where does it say that? I was unable to find it in Scripture. Can you point it out to me please? If not, then take it back, since it is unScriptural and therefore not an authority in such statements.

[Judith Anne]

Doesn’t say but they are tied to a very reputable evangelical site for resources..

Given the record of the anti-Catholics here, I'll check that out for myself, thanks.

[Natural Law]

"The root of the word protestant is clearly PROTEST,it speaks of the denominations that came from the reformation and the attempt to reform some of the erroneous teachings that had entered Rome."

You really need to pick a horse and ride it. The same person who was arguing the definiton of the word "same" a few hours ago by quoting the dictionary now chooses to ignore the same dictionary when it doesn't support her case.....go figure.

[Quix]

Those who have had really poor catechesis

##

Have read such phrases a LOT hereon . . .

have very rarely had more than a slight impression

that such phrases adequately explained more than a tiny fraction of what many of us observe so chronically hereon.

[annalex]

Christ's Passion is different, although indeed the same word, παθημα, suffering.