Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
I don’t remember Christ telling us to pray the rosary to Mary-either in the Protestant bible or the Catholic bible. But then, perhaps I need someone to interpret it for me?
Really?
That's probably because you've rejected His Church and gone off on a Calvinist tangent.
...either in the Protestant bible or the Catholic bible.
And by that you've said the redacted Bible or the complete Bible, respectively.
But then, perhaps I need someone to interpret it for me?
Yes, you do.
Thanks.
I’m familiar with Witness Lee’s outfit.
Did you notice the link to where this piece came from?
I went there...At first I wasn’t impressed..too acccustomed to the busyness or flare that most sites have...but once I started clicking his links in the written material...well!well! well!
There’s a host of information well researched..even a place that shows various relics depicting the Islam Moon symbol way before Mohammed...when it was used by the pagan tribes.
And Arab authors who wrote about all the symbols and pagan beliefs. Truly an eyeopen...just as this portion posted was.. He seems to unearth deeper than most of the same o same I’ve seen already.
MUCH THX.
GREAT IDEA, Petronski.
Appreciate your caring.
Quix, what are talking about? Witness Lee??? Never heard of them...
Clarification of my question - Catholics assert Mary’s body is in heaven, yes? The bodies of other dead/redeemed people are not. What is the origin/basis/authority for the difference?
“If “doorknob” was good enough for Benjamin Warfield, the Lion of Princeton, I didn’t think you’d mind.”
It would seem the Lion of Princeton was either too stupid to understand scripture, or too proud to read them. We are everywhere in scripture presented as needing to choose, and having a responsibility to choose.
“In reference to the Philippian jailer, OF COURSE men must believe to be saved. No Christian denies that. / But the question is WHO believes and WHY.”
No, the question lies here: The jailer asks, “What must I do to be saved?” And Paul and Silas give no rebuke, or even a hint that his question is inappropriate. Instead they tell him to believe, and be saved. “What must I do?” “Believe”.
As when the Jews asked Jesus “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”, and Jesus replied, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
As when Peter preaches at Pentecost. What happened?
37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” The gift of the Holy Spirit comes after repentance.
“And the only men who believe and are saved are those whom God has chosen to receive new ears, new eyes, a heart of flesh, a renewed mind and a rebirth by the Holy Spirit — all free gifts from God to whom He will.”
Not ONCE does someone reply, “If you have been born again and received the gift of faith, you shall believe and are saved.” Nowhere do we read, “For you have been saved by grace thru election.”
Not once does scripture describe God as saving a set of names. Instead, in hundreds and hundreds of verses in the New Testament alone, we find Repent. Believe. Your faith has made you well.
We find Paul writing, “...because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
This is not a hidden teaching of God. This isn’t some secret will. God teaches us repeatedly, explicitly, on nearly every page! If “The Lion of Princeton” couldn’t see it, then perhaps he should have stopped teaching long enough to read his Bible.
Do you think God is mocking us when he commands us to repent? Do you think he is laughing at our helplessness when he commands us to believe, and have faith? Was Jesus lying when he talked to Nicodemus, and said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”?
In God’s sovereign power, he could save a list of names, or he could save whoever believes...but God cannot lie. He doesn’t mock our pain. He isn’t laughing at us as he picks us to go to hell.
If Jesus said, “Whoever believes” but meant, “Whoever is on the list that I give belief to”, then Jesus lied. We hold politicians to a higher standard than you hold God to...and in doing so, you blaspheme God.
God says, “Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.” - Ez 18
Yet your theology makes God take pleasure in sending people to hell. Your doctrine has God being glorified by sending people to hell just because he can - and in fact, just because he won’t let them do anything else. That is slander, and slander against God is blasphemy.
You cite this as proof of election:
“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” — John 17:9
God chooses to save those who believe. That isn’t a hidden teaching. It isn’t something that was waiting 1500 years for Calvin to unfold. “Whoever believes”, Jesus said. Those are the ones chosen, and in John 17 Jesus prays for them.
This results in complete consistency between John 17 and every other chapter in scripture. When your interpretation requires you to interpret 500 ‘hard verses’ by 6 clear ones, you have something very wrong in your interpretation!
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
Mr R “I asked for scripture, and you reply, “Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” That doesn’t make faith a gift, it means when we hear, we can have faith.”
HD “You did NOT answer the question. If faith COMES to us, from WHERE does it come to us?”
Lets go back and read it in CONTEXT. Scripture is much clearer when read in paragraphs, and pages.
“5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or “’Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” - Romans 10
First, Paul contrasts the way of the law with the way of faith. He then describes “the word of faith that we proclaim” - the Gospel message, and he describes it thus:
“...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, ‘Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’”
If / Then - a conditional statement.
Having described the word of faith he proclaims, he then points out how critical it is to proclaim it: “And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?” He goes on to say “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
Faith isn’t an apple. It is a response. Faith is defined as “confidence or trust in a person or thing”. It cannot exist in a vacuum, because you must have a thing or person to trust. You cannot trust what does not exist.
God reaches down. He seeks us out. In his grace, he reveals himself to different degrees to mankind. If a man trust God’s revelation, it is faith. If he doesn’t, there is no faith.
At its core, faith is two-way - someone needs to trust someone else. I can tell you who I trust, but I cannot make you trust him. That is why faith cannot be given away. It exists at the intersection of two people. It is the response of one person to another.
So when Paul preaches the word of faith, either folks reject it (no faith) or accept it (faith). The response comes from within, but it cannot precede the offer or revelation.
God could just condemn us all, but in his grace and mercy he seeks us out, and reveals himself in different measure. If we believe his revelation, we trust him and faith is created - trust between two people. We are saved by grace thru faith.
If we do not believe his revelation, or reject it, then no faith exists and the grace that could have saved us damns us instead. “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
HD “Since you’re quoting Barnes, here is what he has to say on John 1:12-13”
Yes, Barnes is a Calvinist. I am not. However, I often quote Calvin, for many things he taught were good. Barnes is probably my favorite commentary, but he is a man.
And the commentary he wrote there agrees with me, although he may not have meant it to:
“1st. That to be a child of God is a privilege-far more so than to be the child of any man, though in the highest degree rich, or learned, or honoured. Christians are therefore more honoured than any other men.
2nd. God gave them this privilege. It is not by their own works or deserts; it is because God chose to impart this blessing to them, Ephesians 2:8; John 15:16.”
No one has faith apart from God, for there can be no faith where there is no trust, and no trust where there are not two agents. We do not seek God. We do not merit any grace from him. Yet in his grace, he reaches out to us and seeks us. If we trust him, we have faith - not of ourselves, for we would never create it on our own, or reach up into heaven and pull God down to have two agents.
Therefor, everything we have is ours solely because of God’s initiative. It comes from him, not us. But it requires us as well. If we reject him, the grace that would save will damn instead, as Jesus taught.
That promise wasn't to you...We've read the scriptures...We're reading your catechism...We see your religion...
Your's is not the church of the scriptures...Jesus did not found your religion...That's abundantly clear...
That's why you have a catechism to follow...Because you can't follow the scriptures...
“And you complain when we state that the counsel of God is a mystery?”
The complaint is that Calvin takes what is clear and creates a mystery, not the least of which is why anyone would believe him...
Thank you so much for sharing your views, dear brother in Christ!
I can believe you or I can believe Christ.
We've read the scriptures...We're reading your catechism...We see your religion...
Who is this we? The Church of Iscool is a singularity...or have you recruited acolytes?
Your's is not the church of the scriptures...
The Catholic Church is certainly not the church of YOPIOS, that's for damn sure.
That's why you have a catechism to follow...Because you can't follow the scriptures...
False dichotomy...something you'd understand if you hadn't abandoned your God-given gifts of discernment.
You've already proven you don't believe Jesus Christ...
The bodies of other dead/redeemed people are not.Well, except for Enoch and Elijah?
What is the origin/basis/authority for the difference?
The accounts given early on about what happened toward the end of Mary's earthly life and reflection on those accounts .. fast forward to the 1950 when in response to much urging and after many consultations, Pius XII reared back and gave out "Munificentissimus Deus".
I do not know how Mary's situation differs from that of Enoch and Elijah. Better educated Catholics may be able to unfold that.
And the authority is as I said. In one of God's most improbable miracles, He protects the bozos of the Church from error--in extreme cases. Most of the time though they err with jaw-dropping abandon. Thus we are protected from thinking it's their own qualities that protect them from error and are prompted to give glory to God for letting his truth shine forth out of such earthen, ex-Tuh-REAM-ly earthen, vessels.
Thanks for the response. I appreciate it as always. One more question, which is really on my mind quite a bit. Do you think the appearances of Mary are real? If so, does she present in her own body? Does she present as a spirit without her body?
not on foreseen faith or good works,
Who told you that? I thought his reasons were unknown
but according to his own purpose.
True.
"There is none righteous; no, not one."
In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord. (Luk 1:5-6) ESV
As to the "mechanics" of apparitions, etc. my mind turns to mush and runs out my ears. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. What in heck is a "spiritual body?" The risen Lord appears in rooms, is palpable, walks, eats, and disappears. So presumably our Lady could appear "in her body." But that is too much for this poor mind.
You remain lost in a YOPIOS desert of your own making.
I notice that while you're picking at "nits" you don't really want to tackle that. At least Wagglebee made an attempt trying to differentiate dogma from belief. My observation about the misplaced priorities came from the Legion of Mary link that Wagglebee posted and which Wagglebee said was the approved web site of your Vatican.
If you choose to stick with your church's heretical Marian beliefs it's your choice.
And since the Catholic Church has no heretical Marian beliefs, your point is moot.
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