Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
Hi Judith,
I just wanted to apologize to you for my nastiness I have thrown your way on this thread. I have stopped posting, but have continued to follow along.
I tend to get “mean and nasty”, which I saw when I looked through my own posts. That is unacceptable. I hope you can forgive me for my nasty outbursts.
I still have “temper problems” (obviously), which I am still trying to work on, but continue to fail miserably. I see everyone else’s interactions and most, even though they conflict, they’re not so mean about it.
I had NO RIGHT to say your blessings to me and others were false because I DO NOT know your heart. It was my arrogance speaking, and to me, such arrogance is a sin.
So, I do apologize and I hope you can forgive me.
I'm not sure that's a fair assessment. I think the difference in view is a question of discernment. A Born Again Christian will believe Roms. 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
A Born Again Christian knows that once Jesus has you in His hand you will never be lost. It's the understanding how you got there that is the debate. The ones who don't understand The Gospel have inserted a version of the Mosaic law into the equation and they are the ones who don't understand blessed assurance.
Being born again doesn't mean you have lost free will or the ability to reject salvation and sin. It only means that Salvation is still an option that may be reestablished through faith and works (behavior).
Well done, good and faithful servant.
HD “My point is do we, as Christians, WANT to be disobedient-as least if our attitude is right.”
The point of the new birth is that we are born to something different. THAT is what election and predestination is about: those who believe are predestined to become conformed to the Son (Romans 8), not predestined as a list of names to justification.
I wrote: “However, I can find no scriptural basis for thinking we are born again by act of God prior to believing.”
HD: “I was trying to point out that a person cannot be born again unless God opens their eyes and heart to repentance.”
Arminius and I agree. The Remonstrant Articles:
Article 3
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”
http://www.baptistlife.com/flick/remonstrance.htm, tip from monergism.com.
HD “What you are saying is that God opens everyone’s eyes and heart and can accept or reject God at that point by making a decision.”
Not quite. “19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.” - Romans 1
Men have enough about God revealed to them BY God that they have no excuse. That is not the same as saying every person receives the Gospel explicitly, and Paul agrees:
“12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” - Romans 2
And for those with more explicit revelation, it isn’t always pleasant: “14And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.” - Matt 10
Those who have the Gospel handed to them on a platter, yet reject it, will find them worse off “on the day of judgment [than] the land of Sodom and Gomorrah”.
HD: “It is simply because they are not our Lord’s sheep. Joh 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” Our Lord could have said, “You are not My sheep because you do not believe.” but that isn’t what He states. They don’t believe because they are not His sheep.”
I think you are reading in a sequence that isn’t there. When Peter said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”, did he mean be baptized because of your forgiveness, or to obtain forgiveness. I’ve read the word can mean either, although I don’t know...still need to buy a good lexicon.
But I think Jesus is equating not believing and not being his sheep, not saying ownership comes first.
When did Jesus heal someone? When did the Great Physician HEAL?
Mat 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Mat 9:28 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.”
Luk 8:50 But Jesus on hearing this answered him, “Do not fear; only believe, and she will be well.”
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mar 5:34 And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.
Luk 17:19 And he said to him, “Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well.”
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said to him, “Recover your sight; your faith has made you well.”
Act 14:9 He listened to Paul speaking. And Paul, looking intently at him and seeing that he had faith to be made well,
I think that is a type of our salvation. I assume others disagree. Or, in one verse, “Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God”. You don’t give someone the right for something they already have. Believing and receiving are one...arguably, at least.
HD: “People cannot change this fact. They may hand out tracts or stand on street corners preaching until their blue in the face, but unless God moves to change that heart nothing will happen.”
Yes, and no. Arminius agreed that no one can come to God apart from God’s revelation and His grace. That isn’t in doubt. But if we prefer to insult and offend for the joy of doing so, then we disobey Paul’s example:
“19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” - 1 Cor 9
A small sample of scripture:
Jhn 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Act 9:42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed in the Lord.
Act 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.
Act 13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
Act 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.
Something happened, and THEN someone believed. I’ve been looking for a place where it says God gives belief as a gift to those who are unbelieving, or gives faith as a gift. Do you have any?
Absolutely! There is no problem whatsoever. I apologize to you, but I don’t really recall anything mean and nasty from you. Besides, I have struggled with my temper all my life. It’s easy to make sharp remarks, as I know from my own experience.
I’m just trying to live the Good News — “A soft answer turneth away wrath;” smf the fact is, I may have been sharp-tongued to you, or others, in return. If some remark of mine is burning your heart, please accept my apology.
So, as I said, nothing to forgive, but thank you for the apology, please accept mine in return. And let’s laugh together when we can!
I grew up in a very very large family full of intelligent people who are very witty, I am one of the least, but it does rub off, LOL!
Things that may sound hilarious in person, with a smile and a hug, tend to lose the personal in electron-world and look hard, mean or sarcastic. I have been trying to make my words look as friendly as I can, bearing that in mind. So!
FRiends! And may God grant you the dearest wishes of your heart, lots of love and laughter in your life, and His Loving protection to you and all those you love, in Christ’s Most Holy Name I ask these blessing for you.
I'm sorry you don't understand Blessed Assurance.
I'm not trying to pick on you, but do you know The Gospel?
"Things that may sound hilarious in person, with a smile and a hug, tend to lose the personal in electron-world and look hard, mean or sarcastic."....that is SOOOO true!!! I tend to forget that fact!!
Thanks for accepting my apology. If I decide to start posting again on this thread, I will keep this lesson in mind.
"So, as I said, nothing to forgive, but thank you for the apology, please accept mine in return. And let’s laugh together when we can!" .......Lol, you say there is nothing for me to apologize for and I say there is nothing for you to apologize for........ hahahaha, okay, there IS something we can laugh together about!!!
Again, thank you =).
Thanks for that, but good and faithful servant of God I have not been, lol.
This thread, as contentious as it may be at times, has taught me a lot. It certainly made me open my Bible a heck of a lot more that I usually do!
Hmmm, perhaps that is the point. He never ceases to amaze me!!!
I fully understand it, I just reject it.
I'm not sure that's a fair assessment. I think the difference in view is a question of discernment. A Born Again Christian will believe Roms. 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
I'd like to say the Holy Spirit within us confirms our security because that seems to be true in my case but there are many who, tho indwelt by the Spirit do not have that confirmation...
So I then just turn to the scriptures and get (have gotten) my confirmation there...Losing my salvation has never been an issue with me...
I had unexpected company, so I’ve been away from the thread and didn’t see your reply until just now.
I plan to look forward to your posts.
Think of all the places this thread has been!
Sometimes, it may have seemed that none of us could actually talk to each other, but only PAST each other or arguing with each other, or even worse.
God has surely blessed us...
Amen.
Yea for that.
Likewise.
INDEED. AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
I believe that IF all the -isms would BIBLICALLY FOCUS ON THAT ONE TRUTH AND EXTREME PRIORITY, the petty differences that so many think are such priorities, would fade to black; to nothing. And the not so petty heresies would be trashed.
Well said, again.
I’m convinced . . .
that hate is NOT the opposite of love.
Apathy is.
Rats, I should have added that what some posters around here call “hate” I perceive to be “tough love” - acidic words evidently meant to rebuke a wayward brother but received as contempt. Like a parent telling his child “no” is tough love.
But we are only human and often say things poorly, e.g. a parent telling a child “you are stupid” instead of “that was a stupid thing to do.” The child is apt to think his parent hates him when that was not in his heart but in his unfortunate choice of words.
Then again, I always look for the best fruits. LOLOL!
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ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE AND WELL SAID, imho.
Amen!
However, there IS a difference.
And, I'm also keenly aware that even contentiousness--as much as I hate it--keeps some threads and their issues alive enough for thought-provoking things to be said, causing all of us and certainly lurkers to ponder things more prayerfully a lot longer and a lot more productively than they likely would if we all wrote things in wimpy sweetness and light.
I think it has something to do with human nature. Boring is . . . by definition . . . well . . . boring.
Actually, YOU are the one whom prompted me to apologize for my meanness.
I see the way you post to those whom disagree, and even mock, but yet you come across with such loving and forgiveness.
You do stay right with your beliefs, but you are very kind in doing so.
So thanks for that. =)
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