Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
So, if the happiness of the blessed in heaven is God’s happiness shared with them, certainly it will have its compassionate side.
Well, compassion yes, but when I think of compassion a whole lot of different things come to mind, some that may be consistent with Heaven and others maybe not. When Jesus wept over the death of His friend I'm sure you would agree with me that these were not crocodile tears, they were real tears of mourning, providing further proof of His total humanity. But at this very minute on His throne, I don't think He's crying for anyone like that. Since He is God on His throne, this does not seem strange to me.
I guess it would seem a little strange to me for the blessed departed to be so immune, especially, for example, seeing loved ones be lost forever as they die. In just trying to imagine it, I can much easier see my old man being totally wiped away than I can see myself being so fundamentally changed that I would not have an emotional reaction to earthly events that appears to be banned in Heaven. (Obviously this is all pure speculation, so ..... :)
I mean, once the final dust has settled, at the very end of everything, then our existence will have no sin in it at all to worry about, anywhere we are concerned with. It'll be "easy" that way. But what I can't imagine is the difficulty of still being "Me", before God, before the end, and not having earthly emotions concerning sin on earth.
the 2nd: Lewis in the Great Divorce says the blessed have the ACTION of pity, but not the PASSION. They don’t SUFFER Pity, they TAKE pity.
If that turns out to be the case then it would fit, but I can't imagine what passionless pity would be like, especially in matters of eternal life and death. Again, it's the old "will I still be ME?" thing.
Thanks for the ping and your wise words.
Sometimes we are called to care for someone we'd just as soon not deal with (because they're JERKS!) (I didn't say that.)
In my experience, if I try to imagine what it's like to be him, if I try to listen, to be with him, I can be helpful to him.
A part of me still would be just as happy if he got a job transfer to Ulan Bator, but I can "be there for him" as long as he's in my neighborhood.
Of course the surprise often is that one develops a weird affection for such people. But still one can consciously and intentionally take up compassion for them "as unto the Lord," and the "passion" or "emotion" is the one one gets when doing any difficult but worthwhile thing.
Maybe that's somehow sorta kinda a little like what we're talking about.
That Jesus wept over someone’s death just before reversing it is sure an argument for His compassion being part and parcel of His divinity.
But what about the Incarnation itself? We see no tears there but isn’t it a sublime example of compassion being an attribute of God?
Wise words.
Been there & done that a lot, by His grace.
Still do.
I’ll take
YES
for 50 Graces.
why did Christ, when as yet we were weak, according to the time, die for the ungodly? 7 For scarce for a just man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man some one would dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his charity towards us; because when as yet we were sinners, according to the time, 9 Christ died for us (Romans 5)
It makes me think of that adage: “the people who influence you the most are the people who believe in you.”
Just answering the call to care for someone even if that person is a JERK is a form of believing in them.— and that’s a Christian witness that is up-front and personal. That’s what makes it work for everybody concerned.
This scenario of yours is exactly how I came to want to be Catholic-—someone cared enough about me to show me what a good Catholic looked like.
And I was a JERK
From the Catholic POV, God is “without parts or passions.” His compassion doesn’t “feel” to Him the way ours does, usually, to us.
So the exciting question, maybe, underneath FK’s question is how much are the emotions, especially the ‘painful’ ones, essential to our humanity.
The Ascension is classically understood to mean that somehow human nature is “taken up” into God - and words like those are used in the so-called Athanasian Creed about the Incarnation. FWIW
Lewis’s evocative language suggests that the passions of the blessed will be overwhelmed. One of his characters says that to think about genital sex in heaven would be like seeing the Niagara Falls and thinking about making a cup of tea.
In related news is FK’s wondering how he would feel to know that someone he loved was not saved. Here, to me, the question is, how much will the love God shares with us draw us into a kind of identification and or a clear perception of His rightness. You know how Psalm 119 is all about how delightful the Law is, after all. Maybe the blessed, knowing God’s justice as well as any human can, will understand and FEEL how Mr. X’s going to hell is part of God’s glorious plan and therefore not be troubled.
It’s interesting.
You too?
;-)
Praise God!
If you believe them to be “anti-Catholic slander”, I’d suggest spending a bit more time studying Catholic doctrine defined by the Church.
All one has to do is simply read New Advent about any of the topics I've posted. This isn't exactly rocket science.
INTERESTING INDEED.
I think it’s the pervasive Unregenerated human nature, in all mankind, all of us, imho.
\Petronski is extremely well versed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Scripture it supports. His characterization is spot on.
Thru His spirit He lives in me... but I don’t become another Christ. ....”Christ who lives IN me”...but I do not become another Christ..nor am I Christ..Impossible because I STILL sin....
Therefore we all have the battle of the two natures.....as written by Paul....and climaxed with “There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus.”
I understand that. However, - if the conversation is really about the Blessed in Heaven acting for our betternment if we ask, -- then we have to allow for a form of compassion that is not housed in human emotion.
Maybe the blessed, knowing God’s justice as well as any human can, will understand and FEEL how Mr. X’s going to hell is part of God’s glorious plan and therefore not be troubled
Possibly. That we don't know. But that is a different scenario from praying to saints, when their compassion is actively solicited. Is anyone sick among you? Quck, call a priest and get him annointed. Confess your sins to one another for the prayer of a just man accomplishes much (James 5, from memory). Ask and ye will receive. One command I leave you that you love one another.
One Believer was purportedly taken to hell and to heaven.
In hell, this woman saw her mother suffering terribly and, of course, the mother blamed the daughter and demanded some relief from the daughter.
In the Heavenly segment of the visitations, she was still troubled and asked Jesus, her Guide to take the pain away. He, IIRC, touched her head and did. Interestingly, she said that THEN but only then could she still remember the scene of her mother in hell—but without the emotional trauma of it gripping her soul, heart, emotions, mind.
Interesting, FWIW.
Ha! Mark is that a picture of you with your cat?
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