Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Quix]

I appreciate your thoughtful and more reasoned posts.

On this score, however, I have a hard time thinking of anyone on the open threads

who’s had a significantly THICKER skin these 10+ years.

[Just mythoughts]

So the Deuteronomic feasts should have been canceled because of what Isaiah said?

Where exactly do the Deuteronomy's feast contradict what Isaiah said?

And who decided there should be a 'feast' for the Incarnation certainly no canonized writer of the WORD.

The Holy Church of God, inspired and guided by the Spirit of Christ as he promised. So we celebrate the Annunciation every March. (Christmas is really more about the Nativity than the Incarnation itself.)

Well this is where I do not see the 'holy' part attributed to a flesh organization, most especially when it is the WORD that is said to be God is diluted by whatever generations of flesh men deem to pronounce 'holy'. How does one test that proverbial fruit if it is NOT by the WORD? I cannot find written anywhere that I will be judged by flesh and ultimately my judgment will be based upon what part of the WORD I adhered to during this flesh journey.

I do not want to have to justify my participating in easter worship calling it 'Incarnation' worship as one of the judgments against me. Most especially where there is absolutely NO example of any of the canonized authors making such activity 'holy'. I can't even find any church called holy.

Actually, Christmas at the Winter solstice, (solar) on the shortest day of the year of 'sun' light was the date of conception. Luke lays out the 'date' and that appointed time.

Consider that at each of the solar marking of seasonal changes of each calender year except summer, has been of an 'appointed' event and time regarding Christ? Can you tell me of any particular lunar events that marked an action/activity of Christ?

[Judith Anne]

Sometimes it might be better to stay below the radar, instead of calling attention to an angry spell with, ahem, large blue font. :-D

Remember the old trick of writing an angry letter, sleeping on it, and then throwing it away?

What is your intention here? To make a FRiend in Christ, or to fight a mighty battle against someone who, Christ Jesus assures us, He loves (even though you may disagree in theological debate)?

It’s just a suggestion. I have struggled to learn to surrender my temper to my Lord and Savior...if I can, anyone can. You can trust me on this.

Otherwise, we’re stuck with that two-edged sword...

[Quix]

Reasonable and Biblically sound exhortations.

However, . . . it’s my custom . . . to live my life fairly much right out in broad daylight in front of God and everyone.

I hate pretense, sham, prissy appearances etc.

I don’t get genuinely angry very often. I’m comfortable enough expressing it, when I do.

I’m willing to let the chips fall where they may and to deal with the consequences.

I’m also extremely loathe to break a relationship for almost any reason—including some horrifically challenging ones.

However, it does happen on occasion. Doesn’t hinder my forgiveness. I forgive immediately. I’ve just become mature enough to understand that I can only manage my side of relationships. I can’t be responsible for the other side. And, at some point, in some relationships, I have to face the fact that it’s unworkable.

I used to do back flips to vainly try and make every relationship into as wonderful a Christ-like example of relationships possible. I don’t spend much of that kind of energy in those kinds of ways any more.

[Mad Dawg]

Oh my.

If we weren't up to 6,000 posts I might have the energy to address some of this. But it's been dealt with. No resolution was met, of course. But
We don't think the Church is a "flesh" organization any more than we think it is led by men.
There are many plausible arguments about when our Lord was born. I don't worry about it a lot. But it's fun to look at what time of year John the Baptist's father would have been going into the Holy of Holies and then do the math. Also the date of Yom Kippur is determined by the date of Rosh Hashanah which is determined by the new moon.
Easter is not especially a feast of the Incarnation but of the Resurrection.

I find in the Bible that Jesus is the WORD, and that the CHurch is the body of Christ, guided and informed by the Holy Spirit,and that offices and gifts vary among various members of the Body.

[caww]

...”Wonderful point, but after eating from the tree didn’t we become slaves to sin in our fallen state?”...

The penalty was death..”you shall surely die”...(not you can no longer have choice)..

..so now death comes to all throughout the generations since. The choice was between life (tree of life) and death. Listening to God or listening to satan. And we have these same choices today.

But perhaps the question is just what affect did the tree of knowlege of good and evil have on man?

Man lost a perfect home..and more importantly by listening to satan rather than God he chose sides...the door was closed.. and guarded...so man could not return and eat from the tree of life in his “fallen state,” and his intimate fellowship with a Holy God was broken.

But the choice between life and death had been made in the garden. Man could have choosen the tree of life...he didn’t.

I see nothing at all that God removed our ability to choose, rather what and who he has to choose from IN the fallen world he was cast into. We see mans choices being made throughout the old testament...some choose God...some do not. The struggle is those who choose God are still enticed otherwise...but the choice has not been removed.

[Petronski]

If you’re trying to find yourself a new tagline, I’d say Eureka!

[Petronski]

Please point me to all the scripture that teaches salvation is all about you and your works and faith.

Please point out to me all the Scripture that mandates sola Scriptura.

[Judith Anne]

Well, in the world of interpersonal relationships, you will tend to get what you give. Surely I do not need to tell a psychologist THAT.

So, if someone is comfortable with how s/he expresses anger, then that person must realize that an immoderate action might provoke the same in response.

And that person will have to just grin and bear the occasional retaliatory slice. Right?

We all have the ability to reflect upon how our actions impact others, do we not? Just because someone does not state that s/he is irritated, surely we are not too dense to surmise that we may have offended, are we?

This is basic stuff. I’m sure you’re bored. ;-D

[Forest Keeper]

The original publication cannot be found and even if it were it would only indicate one errant priest, not the position of the Catholic Church. You are getting more than a little desperate. Jesus would not approve.

Father Baker is HARDLY some crackpot priest in the Catholic world, as far as I can tell. He has been the editor of Homiletic & Pastoral Review for 40 years. In fact, just a couple of weeks ago Fr Kenneth Baker SJ to Retire from Homiletic and Pastoral Review

As an outsider, I'm not sure, so I'll just ask Catholics if Homiletic and Pastoral Review is some crazy fringe magazine, or is it in the full mainstream of Catholic clergy journals?

[Quix]

No. Not bored.

And, even if folks are literally out to shred me, I still try to learn from their perspective and prayerfully ponder same.

[Quix]

I often FREEP between class administrivia paper work.

I have a lot with my students because I communciate so much with them—require a lot from them and give a lot back.

But I hate admnistrivia paper work. Quite a paradox. I do so much extra because of the benefit to the students. They always say it’s one of the most impactful, meaningful parts of the course and of any class they’ve ever taken.

So, to make it more palatable, I FREEP every so many students’ worth of paperwork, for example.

[Judith Anne]

Well, I am certain that the future will NOT be smooth. But there is always the hope of returning to this place of peace.

[Quix]

LOL.

True enough.

[Iscool]

The burden, it seems to me, is clearly on those who go with the "behind" translation. They have to show why where in every other use in the NT the word indicates lack, here is does not. And if they form their theology from their Bible, and not the other way around, they can't say, "It MUST mean that."

Of course it means a form of lack...You guys sure are hung up on this thing...

But no, it isn't used as lack in every instance...

Luk 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

And why penury??? Because it adresses more fully what her 'lack' was...And this time, it was a lack of funds...

<Luk 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

Just as in Col. 1:24...Paul may have lacked suffering and to use lack indicates he stayed that way...A permanent condition...

But stating that Paul was 'behind' gives the connotation that he was catching up...

[Iscool]

Thanks for the update but I noticed something...

Do you see the :- symbol I highlighted in both definitions? All the words after that symbol in each definition are the usages in the AV, not the definition of the Greek word.

Yes, I see that...And I see that the word you want to use - lack- is included in the bunch as well...The definition is 'deficit', specifically, poverty...NOT lack...Lack is a rendering as well...

Curious world we live in...

[Just mythoughts]

Oh my. If we weren't up to 6,000 posts I might have the energy to address some of this. But it's been dealt with. No resolution was met, of course. But We don't think the Church is a "flesh" organization any more than we think it is led by men. There are many plausible arguments about when our Lord was born. I don't worry about it a lot. But it's fun to look at what time of year John the Baptist's father would have been going into the Holy of Holies and then do the math. Also the date of Yom Kippur is determined by the date of Rosh Hashanah which is determined by the new moon. Easter is not especially a feast of the Incarnation but of the Resurrection. I find in the Bible that Jesus is the WORD, and that the CHurch is the body of Christ, guided and informed by the Holy Spirit,and that offices and gifts vary among various members of the Body.

And when Christ Himself was asked WHAT would be the sign(s) of His return, did Christ say was first and foremost? Deception. It is ok that you do not have the 'energy' to address any of this. Because it is not me that is important for you to be answerable to or judged by.

How many did Paul symbolically say there would be that would NOT bend a knee to Baal? We are nearing that appointed time and it may well be at some moon festival appointed by flesh man.

[Iscool]

Celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is NOT pagan.

I didn't say it was...I said Easter is a Pagan Holiday...

[RnMomof7]

Please point me to all the scripture that teaches salvation is all about you and your works and faith.
Please point out to me all the Scripture that mandates sola Scriptura

No answer huh?

This is not a discussion on Sola scriptura it is a discussion on what you said..that you are "saved by faith and works like everyone"

It seems you now admit that a works based salvation is tradition not scriptural?

Lets look at what the Bible says about "faith alone"

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment::9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses

(so much for works)

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.(so much for works)
[which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(no works there)

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Faith and belief are the flip sides of the same coin

Jesus never taught salvation by works, in fact he taught just the opposite

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(works flow from our salvation, not the other way around)

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is the will of the Father?

Scripture says this is His will for men

Jhn 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The will of the Father is that we believe, so what does Jesus say to the man that thought his works would earn him salvation ?

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That mans WORKS which he did in the name of Jesus were called SIN (iniquity) by Christ. Why?

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

BTW

The use of "alone" in Romans 3 has a history that preceeds Luther. Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.

Translations prior to Luther used the terminology of faith alone with respect to Romans 3:28. The Nuremberg Bible of 1483 had "allein durch den glauben," while the Italian Bibles of Geneva in 1476 and even 1538 had "per sola fide."

We are all, everyone sinners before a Holy God..we have no righteousness of our own..and when we attempt to become righteous by works, those works are filthy rags to God.. Everything already belongs to God and is under His headship.. there is nothing WE can do that is anything other than a human attempt to manipulate God to earn His favor.

Only those "works" that flow from Him in our salvation, or faith are seen or blessed by God..

We need to understand that we can not ever keep any of the commandments, we need Christ to do that for us.

[Petronski]

I didn't say it was...

Yes, you did.

Easter is the celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and, as such, is not pagan.